Uncovering Your True Self: Exploring the Enneagram With Stephanie Foy

Discover the power of the enneagram with special guest Stephanie Foy.

In this episode, we explore how understanding different personality types can help reveal our inner strengths, and where we may need to stretch and grow to build better relationships with ourselves and others. Learn about the wings of each type, stretching between numbers, techniques for self-awareness, what it looks like to show up in love in various scenarios, and much more! Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation.

 

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Gaining a greater understanding of the Enneagram can help you to understand yourself and other people's perspectives better.

• Knowing your type on the Enneagram can give you insight into how your behavior will likely differ in various contexts such as business, parenting, or marriage.

• The Enneagram provides a framework for self-awareness and growth by helping us identify our strengths and weaknesses and areas where we need improvement (known as "stretch" points).

• It is important to remember that when dealing with others, it is not always about whether they like us but rather being able to genuinely support them regardless of their opinion of us or ours of them.

• Showing up as love in the world requires an awareness of ourselves which comes from taking time out for reflection and honest dialogue with ourselves about what motivates our behaviors, thoughts, feelings, and actions toward others.

 

 

 

Resources

• LINKS

  • Stephanie Foy

  • Sacred Geometry

 

Episode Transcript

Amy Hageman  00:13

All right. Hello love's Welcome back to the Living Out Love podcast. We're in for such a treat today such a unusual rare treat, because I'm going to be interviewing my very own mom on the podcast today, I will not be interviewing her as my mom. For this episode, I'm going to be interviewing her as Stephanie Foy, who, you know, I'll let her do her own professional introduction. But the reason why I wanted to have her on is because I'm very, into the practice of building your awareness of yourself, your strengths, your weaknesses, how you operate in the world, I think that's really important for us if we intend to be love in the world. And I'm all about using any tool that can help you do that. And my mom happens to be an Enneagram, certified coach and practitioner. And so I wanted to have her on to talk about the Enneagram with us. So, mom, Stephanie Foy, welcome to the podcast.

 

Stephanie Foy  01:11

Thanks, thanks for having me.

 

Amy Hageman  01:13

So why don't you just share with everybody? The more, you know, professional side of side of you, who are you? What work do you do? Why did you get interested in Enneagram? Give us some of the basics.

 

Stephanie Foy  01:26

Okay, so why I have an undergraduate degree in business, I have a master's degree in social work. My social work practice has always been at the mezzo level, like not do micro, I don't do one to one, therapy, or case management. But I also don't do like public policy advocacy work, I've always focused more at the level of organizations, and people within organizations. And I've been doing that work. For a long time, we'll just say, a long time since you were a little bitty kid. So. And when I've used a number of different tools along the way.

I was introduced to the Enneagram, really a long time, quite a few years back, and thought it was intriguing, but didn't really pursue it. And then, as I've worked more into doing executive coaching, as part of the organization development practice, I really saw the Enneagram as a tool that really lines up perfectly in support of a coaching practice. So and it aligns very much with my worldview, and my perception about how people grow, how people heal, and sort of aligning with what I was, who are my spiritual values, because, and I'll just say a little bit about the Enneagram, the Enneagram, for all that we know, is an ancient spiritual tool, it evolved out of the spiritual tradition. It was, it was held in the spiritual traditions and philosophy. And it was for a long time, a very oral tradition. But it's always been a tool and a way of understanding self, mostly, and others. But from that view of what are people's essential characteristics? And what are their sort of their motivations, and what brings them to show up in the world and the way that they show up?

And so, and I've done a lot of things over the years, as you know, you know, you go down the list, Myers Briggs disc does all the things that are great and are helpful. But I just got to a place where it felt like that that was really surface level stuff. That's really the outward behavior, and how do we really reach to the inside? What's, how do we get to that? So I like in the metaphor of thinking about an iceberg. And what you see with an iceberg is you see only the parts above the water. And that, to me is where a lot of the other tools really show up is what's showing. And so to me, the opportunity with the Enneagram is to really understand what's below the water. And oftentimes, what's below the water is much bigger and much deeper than what's above the water. So to think about how do we get to understanding what are the motivations, sometimes with lots of folks who do the Enneagram for the first time, things that that were part of their subconscious, that were part of they like weren't even aware that that was how they were acting and that was what was motivating them and that was driving their choices and their behaviors. So for lots of people and me included, when I got to the enneagram I was like, "oh, this really has value for folks." And I first worked with the Enneagram, with an associate and coach friend that I have, and really found it valuable, and said, You know, I really would like to do this more. So added it to my collection of tools and, and skills and certifications.

 

Amy Hageman  05:26

Yeah, I love what you said about Well, A, you said a lot of things I really like. But one of the things that you said was that you felt like the Enneagram gets to the below the surface. And it can help people identify some of the motivations that they couldn't have identified themselves. And that was exactly my experience with the Enneagram. In fact, I was thinking just this morning, I was thinking about, you know, that we were going to interview and I was thinking that the very first time I took the Myers Briggs, I identified as an extrovert. And it's because I'm a two on the enneagram. And I just want to be loved. And my older brother is was very much loved. And he was an extrovert. And so from a young age, I thought, oh, I need to be like my older brother, I'm going to behave the way that he behaves. And that will get me to be loved.

And so it wasn't until I took the Enneagram that I was like, Oh, I'm just running around like a chicken with my head cut off trying to make sure everybody likes me. And it didn't, also, it didn't dawn on me that other people aren't motivated by that. Yeah, it's, it was shocking to me, I talked to a friend about it. And her husband and I are both twos. And we were talking about the pitfalls of being so wrapped up in what somebody else might possibly think about you. And she laughed, and she said, that's so funny, because I just think that's their problem. Like, they're just wrong if they don't like me. And I was like, Wow, that's so freeing. So that's the other part that you mentioned about the Enneagram, where I think it's like when you can learn more about the way other people operate, and helps free you up differently, either in your understanding of the world or in your understanding of yourself. It's just, there's so much freedom there.

 

Stephanie Foy  07:08

Yes. And it, in my opinion, it the Enneagram, understanding the Enneagram, understanding your type, and the other eight types can free you up free a person to be more authentic. And we look through coaching and through support through, you know, the sort of the debriefing of the Enneagram. And coaching work, is to sort of figure out how do we, how do we bring that person, whether there are two or seven, to be the highest expression of that two, or that seven that they can be, because when they move into, you know, the higher the healthier side of their two-nis, or their seven or three, or whatever the number they are, whatever path they are, then it allows them and allows you so much more freedom, because you're very you can be more authentic in yourself. And then you figure out, okay, how do I integrate portions of the other? How do I use other pieces of the Enneagram. And we can talk about that, to help to support me to move me forward to move me past my stuck places.

 

Amy Hageman  08:21

Right, right. You know, before we get too deep into the specifics of the Enneagram, I want to go back to something you said earlier, which was that you felt like this was really in alignment with your worldview around growth and healing. Those are some of my favorite words. So talk to me about the the, quote, like worldview of the Enneagram. What's, what's the goal?

 

Stephanie Foy  08:49

So you could probably ask 100 Enneagram practitioners question and give you a similar or a different answer. But to me, the goal of the Enneagram is to provide people a framework, a tool through which to examine their selves, their behaviors, their underlying motivations, their view of the world, visa vie themselves, and then others. So like, I do a lot of work with teams. And I think it's a great tool for teams because it it elevates the personal awareness and it elevates the awareness of others. And it does it in a very holistic sort of way. That answer your question?

 

Amy Hageman  09:35

I think, I think it does. It's giving the perspective I guess. I guess my question is, how is the Enneagram helpful for...yeah, like how do you how is it helpful? Like different than like the disc or the Myers because to me, the Myers Briggs in the disc, or they're helpful to like a level two, and Enneagram I'm like, I'm gonna put that at like an eight in comparison, you know? Yeah, yes. Yeah.

 

Stephanie Foy  10:13

So, um, so let me say there's a Enneagram has, there's a body of work around the Enneagram. And there's a variety of tools and assessments within the Enneagram community. I am particular am certified with Integrative Enneagram, that I-EQ Nine. And it gives us a whole slew of insight. I mean, like, when a person does a professional report, it gives you a 20 page document.

So it really is looking at it's going to give people an indication about who is their true self? Who is their real self? And in that, what are the values and ideals of that person? What are what are their blind spots? And it's really interesting, because we all think we know our blind spots, and then when they get surfaced in the Enneagram, you see them in a whole different way. Yes.

We talk about what's the worldview? Like, what is it that how, how people view the world. I mean, you've heard about people saying, there are people who have the worldview that the world is out to get them. And then there are other people who have the worldview that the world is a safe and beautiful place. So but within sort of those big categories, there are some really fine distinctions. And each of the nine view, nine types has a very specific worldview about how they see the world and how they operate in it.

So we're talking about authentic self, we're talking about idealization, we're talking about worldview, we're talking about blind spots, we're talking about defense mechanisms, what are the defense mechanisms? Because they're different, as you just said, as a two I want people to like me, well, that's a defense mechanism that's like, you know, I've got to, I've got to be these things so that other people will like me. We look at values, virtues, and vices. So those are all sorts of things. And you think well, vices vise know, each one has its own particular slant.

You know, it's kind of the concept of every personality thing that you think about or characteristic indicator, they're always a double edged sword. One side of the sword is the positive and one side is the negative. And so what what side of the sword are we focusing on we want, we want to surface all of that, and bring that forward so that we can be as aware as we can be in all of our interactions.

 

Amy Hageman  12:55

Thank you, I think that's what I was trying to get to that I couldn't name when I was trying to figure out the difference between the Enneagram. And some of the other ones, is the double edged sword, where we're looking at both the positive and the negative. Because every, you know, every shadow has a light, etc. And so I just think that's fantastic. Do you want to talk a little bit about each type?

 

Stephanie Foy  13:17

Sure. So again, this goes back to ancient wisdom as best we can find. So let me just give a little bit of history about the Instagram, and the tool that I find so valuable. So as I said, as best we can tell, it's in the 1000s of years old, there's really some ancient writings that indicate the Enneagram. And not only the sort of the content of the enneagram, but even the the wheel itself the whole life, gram has ancient, ancient sort of roots.

And then in the 1960s, a psychiatrist working in the field said, Hey, I have this interest. And so I think there's really something valuable here started to bring it into what we think of as modern psychology. And then, of course, it got picked up and other people took it on. And there's a number of different tools. If anybody goes out and searches on the internet, you can find all kinds of assessments from $0, you know, up, and what I find because because I've done some of those others is they can be good and informative, but they're not going to give you the depth of information. And the one that as I said, I'm certified in the IQ nine, which is an integrative Enneagram.

And what I really appreciate about that, being a social worker and trained in science, is - it has all of the qualitative studies behind it, the they've done all the psychometric testing, they've done all the quantitative testing, they continue to test the instrument. And it has 99.95%, validity, reliability. So it really does measure and indicate, in a way that's very strong. And so for me that it's not, it's not quite science, it's real science, with real measurements and real data. So that's, that's the other part that I really value and appreciate about the IQ nine is the science that's behind it.

 

Amy Hageman  15:44

I can attest to the detail of that because like, you know, you already know this with the audience won't know that my husband and I are both type twos, but we're different type twos. And we have some different like details within that, that when you pull it out - it's very, very interesting. So yes, it's highly, I would say it's highly accurate, and it pulls out the nuances really well.

 

Stephanie Foy  16:04

Right. So let me talk a little bit about the nine types. And then I'll talk about what you're talking about, which is the distinctions, which is the subtypes, okay. Because how we really view the Enneagram, we really get down to actually 27 types, because every, each of the nine has three subtypes. So let's first talk about sort of the type.

So there are nine and the first one, the number one type we call the strict perfectionist. So these folks, you know, they like order, they like structure, they like control, I'll probably, you know, some of you will say, Oh, this is me, you know, they're their principal, they're careful, they're conscientious, you know, they can be perfectionist, which can be good or not, depending upon you know, but man, they are going to have self control. And they can be critical. And their, their whole aim is to do the right thing and to avoid mistakes, and to work towards self control. And I would say, a high-sided one is going to be looking at themselves and working on how do I show up? How can I be, you know, showing up as as best as my best self, a low sided one, who hasn't, in my mind had done their work is going to be looking to try to impose their perfectionism on others. So So that's, that's the strict perfectionist.

The number two, the considerate helper, and the helpers are, they're giving, they're supportive, they're pleasing. They like to compliment others. They're generous, they're caring. They're typically friendly, interactive, warm hearted,

 

Amy Hageman  18:08

What's not to love about a two? There's no downside. ;)

 

Stephanie Foy  18:11

What's not to love about it too well, so. But their motivation is that they need to be liked and appreciated. And when they don't have that sense, as you said, you were going around doing everything you thought you needed to do to be liked, and to be appreciated. And so sometimes twos get out of balance in terms of either bending over backwards or trying to stretch to be something that they're not, or they tend to be self sacrificing, and not attend to themselves. Because that's other that's the low also started to

 

Amy Hageman  18:54

You could possibly call that codependence.

 

Stephanie Foy  18:56

Yes. Yeah. So..

 

Amy Hageman  18:58

I don't know anything about that.

 

Stephanie Foy  19:01

Okay. All right. Okay, so we've done one and two to the three is called the competitive achiever. And these folks, they're ambitious, they're busy, they're practical. They're typically list makers. They're focused. They're competitive. But you know, just like the perfectionist or just like the caretakers into taken to the extreme. Competition is not a good thing. You know, it can be it can be cutthroat, it can be ugly.

 

Amy Hageman  19:35

I mean, the threes that I personally know they're more competitive with themselves.

 

Stephanie Foy  19:41

So that's that depends upon the subtype and we talk about that. So yes, threes with a subtype of a self preservation will be more competitive with themselves, whereas three other types of type threes tend to be very competitive out in the world.

 

Amy Hageman  19:59

Oh, Okay.

 

Stephanie Foy  20:02

Again, threes are task oriented. They're goal oriented. They live and die by their success. So whether it's success in making a meal, our success and pulling off a million dollar contract, it's all there's always measures of, Am I was it successful with a meet? Did it meet the goal? Did it meet the standard? And it's not necessarily a standard that anybody else sets is what they set for themselves, right?

Okay, so the four is a very interesting crowd. These folks are the intense creatives. And these folks. They're the ones who always want to be seen as artistic, individualistic, they never want to think that they look at sound or like anybody else. Like, they want to be individualized expressions. They're intense. Oftentimes, they can be deep, because they're a highly emotional number or characteristic, not unlike a tube, but in a different way than a two. Hmm. Does that make sense?

Let me think if I can tell you who I think of as.. I person that we both know, named Mary was...

 

Amy Hageman  21:22

I think so.

Well, I was trying to think of I was trying to think of artists or like pop culture, people that somebody might know. Yeah, but the person I thought of you probably wouldn't know. But I was thinking of maybe like, a Kesha or a Lady Gaga like they they're both not about... or even maybe Madonna?

 

Stephanie Foy  21:58

Yeah. Well, I want I was thinking about that. So we can be artists. But a lot of times you'll see those people as also threes, they're also going to have a strong achiever orientation, that they're going for success no matter what it looks like. Okay, so because the threes that are the subtype, so they like to be center stage, they like to be out front.

 

Amy Hageman  22:26

I've been curious. And this is a whole other conversation. But while we're on the topic of fours, and they like want to be individualized. Are there more fours in the United States than you think? And maybe some other countries? Because the United States culturally is so it's not about that? Okay. Oh,

 

Stephanie Foy  22:43

well, fours? Oh, well, actually, the United States, we really want to talk about the culture of the United States, we are what some people consider to be a 378 culture. So three, success goal oriented, take care of yourself be successful, seven, visionary, enthusiastic, outgoing, that this is who gets this, who gets rewarded? What corporate culture, you know, what and sort of what's the general milieu in the United States. So seven, and then we'll talk about eight. So when we get to seven, and eight, when you think about those three numbers kind of cling.. like linchpinned together, you can see how it shows up in the culture.

 

Amy Hageman  23:30

Yeah, that does make sense. Yeah.

 

Stephanie Foy  23:33

Okay. So fives, fives are considered the quiet specialist. These are the folks that they think a lot, they analyze a lot, they like to solve problems, they can be quite shy, they can seem detached, they can be reserved, they can be reflective, they're private, these are folks that you intergroup have to be sure that you encourage them to participate, because otherwise they're going to think, and then they might come back later, you know, in an email or whatever, like in a team setting, but they're typically very private people. And they're going to their goal is to really learn and to know as much as they can, because they want to go deep within whatever it is that they want to learn or learn about or think about, they're gonna go deep in that thing. So, so, you add cerebral you know, and then their motivation is to understand.

You know, like, we talked about twos, their motivation is to be liked. The motivation for fours is they have to be unique and they have to be authentic. So, yeah, threes have to succeed. Okay.

So the six is called the loyal skeptic. And their motivation is to be safe and to belong. So these folks are always.. they're the ones who are looking around the corner, what's going to happen, you, they're the ones that can be anxious. They're the ones that are looking for the other shoe to drop. So they're cautious. They're skeptical, they're anxious,

 

Amy Hageman  25:26

they don't sound like a good time.

 

Stephanie Foy  25:29

Those are the folks that can be on high alert. So they're, they're valuable in society. And we, truthfully, there's a lot of people in police work, and that fall in the sixth category. So the value though, think about this, I might not be fun to some of us that are on other number types. But the value of a six is in conjunction with others in a team setting, they can, they will and can anticipate the problems, whereas some other numbers will just forge ahead and they'll go off the cliff sixes that will keep people from going off the cliff, they'll be the ones that will be like, Okay, we thought about this have you What about that, and it will drive some people crazy. But it's very valuable. If you can come around to the value of the six, they can really make a contribution.

 

Amy Hageman  26:26

Hmm, interesting. So it's seven also a skeptic are we going to have three skeptics?

 

Stephanie Foy  26:33

No sevens. These are the enthusiastic visionaries.

 

Amy Hageman  26:39

Oh, the people we love to follow

 

Stephanie Foy  26:41

The people we love to follow. And the people that are big, this is the most playful number on the ennegram wheel. Out of all the nines, the seven has, you know, they, they want to experience everything. And they want to avoid pain, they are looking for pleasure. They're looking for fun. So they're optimistic, they're fun loving, they're spontaneous, they can be restless, they can. They're often very entrepreneurial. And they can be they can also be very uninhibited. The flip side of that is that an unhealed seven.

And I was introduced to one not too long ago. And I was like his, his pattern had been in his life, that every time something got hard, he'd just leave. And he was an organization it got hard. Rather than dig in and try to make a success out of it. I'm out, I'm going to the beach, you know, I'll get a job later or whatever. So that's very, that's very sort of seven energy. So that that's the negative side of seven, the positive side of seven is man, they can be so our joint friend G seven.

 

Amy Hageman  28:08

Yeah. My elder brother whom I thought I should be like, seven.

 

Stephanie Foy  28:14

So but so they can have a real positive outlook on the other side, sevens can have a monkey mind, they can have a hard time focusing because they're doing this and doing this and doing this and

 

Amy Hageman  28:25

the new shiny object.

 

Stephanie Foy  28:28

let me go to the next thing. Let me do this next thing, let me you know, they're they're going to be constantly but there are a lot of fun and they're going to organize, they are looking to bring other people into their sphere of enthusiasm and experience.

 

Amy Hageman  28:46

Okay, so it's a little bit social also?

 

Stephanie Foy  28:49

Yes.

 

Amy Hageman  28:50

okay.

 

Stephanie Foy  28:50

I can be social. Even the self preservation sevens can be social. So they're, that's, that's sort of who they show up as. Okay. So if you're looking again, you know, when we look at team and organizations, it's fabulous to have a seven. Just have to be sure you're backing them up with some other folks that, you know, yeah, like a one. Yeah. And threes that fill in with structure and order and things that get things done. And not that sevens don't. So let's be sure all of the Enneagram numbers can pick up and take on things from the others. It's not like, Oh, if you're seven, you're never organized. No, that's not the case. But they have to be mindful of it so that they're know they're working through things.

Okay, eight, eight are the active controllers. These are the people that are powerful, they're direct, they're strong, they take charge, they're decisive. They're self assured. They don't mind being confrontational. They can be frank, they can be magnetic and they can and certainly be power hungry.

 

Amy Hageman  30:03

Interesting, okay.

 

Stephanie Foy  30:06

Their motivation is to be strong and in control. And they don't like it when they're not in control.

 

Amy Hageman  30:15

I, as a to have like, I can't even fathom what it would be like to be that person. Yeah. Interesting. Okay, but but I do know an eight. So it's been helpful to get to see it in action.

 

Stephanie Foy  30:30

Yeah, they eights don't like to be vulnerable. They sure don't like to be exposed. They don't like to be seen as weak. And they'll do all kinds of things to cover that part up, even when it doesn't serve them.

 

Amy Hageman  30:48

And you said the United States was three, seven and eight. Is that what you said?

 

Stephanie Foy  30:52

Yeah.

 

Amy Hageman  30:53

Oooo, interesting.

 

Stephanie Foy  30:54

Well you think about goal oriented, three's visionaries. And then

 

Amy Hageman  31:00

I got this. I'm, I'm tough. And I'm in large and in charge.

 

Stephanie Foy  31:04

Yeah. And we're direct. And we're, you know, we're the powerful country, whereas think about Japan. Not a 378 country. Not, you know, think about that culture. Yeah.

 

Amy Hageman  31:18

Interesting.

 

Stephanie Foy  31:21

And then finally, the number nine is the adaptive Peacemaker. And these folks, they're easy going they're unassuming. They can be patient, they can be accommodating, and sort of like a to, but in a different way, accommodating to a fault. Because oftentimes, they'll be like accommodating. And it's not because they're seeking somebody else's approval, like a  two is, but because they haven't... They don't know their own mind. Like, they haven't, they don't, they're not focused enough on their own self to understand what is it that they need and want. So they're not aggressive, they can be very fair. And they strive to keep balanced. They want harmony and peace. And in some cases, they want harmony and peace at all costs, even if it's not good for them.

So again, every every one of the numbers has high sides and low sets, and we just look to strengthen the hot sides and work with the low sides and understand it.

 

Amy Hageman  32:29

So I'm curious, I feel like I should know the answer to this. But I don't remember. Let's say so my numbers are two, is there anything important about number one or number three? Like, I'm sandwiched for all the numbers, the way that we'll have set up not just two, but is that significant?

 

Stephanie Foy  32:47

So let me say okay, there's different elements of of working with the Enneagram. And what you're talking about as a concept called wings. So what's on either side of the number? So you want to talk about wings? Or you  want to talk about subtypes?

 

Amy Hageman  33:05

I want to talk about everything.

 

Amy Hageman  33:09

Just okay, so wings or anything was my first question is like, it's because like, in astrology, it's a it's a wheel. And it's like each sign was the answer to the sign before. So I was curious about how how that works with the Enneagram. With it's not a wheel, it's nine points, right? In a circle?

 

Stephanie Foy  33:26

Yes, it is in a circle. And maybe we should we'll upload an image diagram have an image. So let me say about wings. So there are some Enneagram tools out there that will give you will say you're a two with a six wing? Well, that doesn't make any sense. Because the drawing the Enneagram itself is a wheel. And you like if you think about a bird, their wings are not as disjointed, right? And you always have two of them, you know, ever seen a bird fly with one wing, not so much. So, in the integrative approach to the Enneagram, we follow the model that there's two wings that every member has two wings. So as a two, your wing is a one and a three. And for most people, like your handedness, like you have probably developed one wing more than the other as a way to stretch like, okay, my twos not working, let me lean to three or one. So what we do through coaching and through working with the Intagram, is to look to see what are ways in which because it's much easier for our two, because one and three are close, is to integrate elements of that one and three, because they're closer to you than say, going across the wheel to a six or seven.

 

Amy Hageman  34:49

Right and like when you were talking to me about eight I was like that's no man's land. I'm not familiar with that at all. Yes, that's a total different thing.

 

Stephanie Foy  34:57

Yes. So um, so have wings are those numbers on either side. And so a nine has an eight new one, wing four has a five and a three links. So every every number has two wings. And we know that, like I said, some people are going to be more developed in some areas than the other. And in fact, I recently did a coaching with a gentleman who believed he was a, I want to think he, he believed he was a five. And what it really turned out was, he wasn't a five, he was a four, he was leaning into the five, because that was sort of what was being called on from him. And truthfully, in his relationship, it was in his primary relationship. Five was like more comfortable, it was more comfortable to be a five than it was before. So great. So first thing, sometimes we sabotage ourselves by, you know, there's there's value in the wings. But if we go too much towards them, then then we're out of sync, we're out of balance.

Our goal here, as the name suggests, integrative Enneagram, which is understand self and integrate the highest and best of ourselves and the other things that we can use at our disposal to make our life work better. Okay, so the three subtypes, I'm gonna talk about subtypes a little bit, yes, please do. So my, the way I think about subtypes is like, you go to a really nice ice cream store, and you pick out your favorite flavor of ice cream. And then they have all those mix ins, you know, like you can mix in, you can mix in gummies, or you can mix in chocolate, or you can mix in coconut or you so the same ice cream the same time to you, too. You go and you might mix in

 

Amy Hageman  37:01

Oreos, Oreos,

 

Stephanie Foy  37:04

and J, the other two, he might go get the same flavor of ice cream. But if he mixes in fresh strawberries, you see the experience of the two even though the base thing, the ice cream is still the same, but how people experience it's going to be different. So to me think about that, to me is like think about it like ice cream toppings. Yeah.

 

Amy Hageman  37:26

And I want to interject real quick before you describe the subtypes and remind our audience that this is specific to the Integrative Enneagram. And that if you just go online and take an Enneagram quiz, you're not going to hit the subtypes. No. So, okay, but it's so valuable. So please explain.

 

Stephanie Foy  37:43

So there's three subtypes for each of the nine types. And the three subtypes are the same for all the nines, all nine types. So that's how we get to that 27.

One of the subtypes is called self preservation. So these folks on a broad stroke, are looking to bring forth their expression as a way to preserve themselves. And it's not necessarily that they're doing it out of selfish reasons. It's not like, Oh, let me just focus on me and the rest of the, the high minded self says, When I take care of myself, one, it leaves other people free to be themselves, because I'm not over there missing in their business. And also, when I attend to myself, then I'm fully responsible for me, and that allows other people to be responsible for them. So that's the focus of the of the self preservation.

The S x, which is a one to one, and their focus, just like it sounds one to one, they're going to be very relationship oriented, their, their currency, their exchange, their, you know, what, how they perceive their value in the world is in the relationships that they create, and specifically one on one relationships. So so not surprising that a lot of people in coaching in coaching relationships are one to ones, the s, the s X type, a lot of people in sort of advising and counseling. You can think about stockbrokers, you could think about other people that would see their exchange in sort of one to one sort of role. So that's them.

And then the third type is the S O. And that folks, those are the socials and their currency, the how that where they operate is in group. They, they're in group they're in their mindset is around we and They operate well in hierarchy. They operate well in big structures. So, like we were talking about threes, just we'll just say those competitive achievers, you think about an achiever, who has an S O subtype, will a three. So where do you think they're gonna want to be? center stage? You know, they're gonna want to be out here and, you know, look at me see me?

 

Amy Hageman  40:29

I could see that being like an athlete because they're competing with somebody other than themselves.

 

Stephanie Foy  40:33

Exactly. Okay. So, so that's, so those are the three subtypes. So we overlay that, then, like you just said a little while ago, you're your two, and you're one type of two. And your husband is a two, and he's another type of two.

 

Amy Hageman  40:51

And it's hilarious to find the nuances in the way that we see. Yes, it's really interesting. It is.

 

Stephanie Foy  40:58

Yeah, so how you, and it is, it's not only the motivation, it's the currency, but then it's how, how that two gets expressed. Yeah. So okay, so we talked about wings, we've talked about subtypes. The other key element of the integrative Enneagram, is called the lines working the lines.

The lines are the places where we look to see what are the areas so if you think about, we'll post an image somehow. Sure. But within the Integrative Enneagram, there's lines that that make connections within the numbers. And so we look to see what are those triadic numbers, and the lines that connect them because for let's say, for a nine, their, their lines are going to be connected to three and six. So so they can look to see, and what the lines indicate to us are? What are the ways that we need to under stress? What is the thing we need to where do we need to move to in order to get balance? What's what's going to work for us to get us out of, you know, when we're stuck, because people get stuck. So I was like, Well, you know, if I'm stuck, and I'm a two, and I just keep being a to like all the more two well, that's okay. But you know, you might say, Okay, well, let's see, if I'm a two, I could lean into my lines. And that's gonna give me stretched place, and a release place. So we're looking for the ways that we can find release.

 

Amy Hageman  42:53

So let me make sure I'm understanding this. So I'm a two, I have two wings, my wings are one and three. And those are places that I can lean into relatively easily when I need them. Right. And then the lines there's one that's a stretch and one that's a release, right, so a stretch my in terms of like a stretch goal, like something out?

 

Stephanie Foy  43:13

Well, this is okay, this is gonna be funny. So the stretch line for a two is eight.

 

Amy Hageman  43:21

Eight! Oh, that's so brutal!

 

Stephanie Foy  43:23

I can't even imagine it. So that's, you know, so eight is like, okay, you know, I need to do develop my personal power. I can express my anger.

 

Amy Hageman  43:44

That's allowed?

 

Stephanie Foy  43:45

Yes, I can care less how other people think about me because eights don't give a do da, what other people think. So..

 

Amy Hageman  43:55

That is the wild to me.

 

Stephanie Foy  43:57

Stretching into eight, you can see how that would be growth. A growth area for a two, right?

 

Amy Hageman  44:06

And what's my release? Tell me how I relax.

 

Stephanie Foy  44:10

So release for the two is to move towards the four which is authentic, emotional. dividual. Yes. Go deep inside yourself. Follow your dreams. Increase your creativity. Well, that rings true. Those fours are so creative, you know, so.

 

Amy Hageman  44:31

So we have time real quick to go. Tell each number their lines, their stretch and their release. Right? So we've done two let's go back to one and then..

 

Stephanie Foy  44:40

Okay. All right. So let's go to the release lines first because the easy ones, okay, so the one remember, they're perfectionist? Yes. So what would you guess would be their release?

 

Amy Hageman  44:55

Something creative

 

Stephanie Foy  44:56

How about seven?

 

Amy Hageman  44:58

I was gonna say I was gonna say How about about my older brother?

 

Stephanie Foy  45:01

Playful, integrate fun, be playful, become more spontaneous. Okay, explore more possibilities, because take some of the control off. So yeah, that sort of makes sense, right? Yeah, that would be a release for a one. So you want to do all the release lines or you want me to give the stretch?

 

Amy Hageman  45:25

Let's go ahead and have this stretch line for one.

 

Stephanie Foy  45:27

Okay, so the stretch line for one is the four. Because they're so busy being controlling, and perfectionist, creativity is messy. Yeah, and a strict perfectionist, they're gonna want math, they don't like math. So they need to work on being creative. They can work on developing deep connections, having that emotional availability, and looking to be more fluid in their worksite, which is help for show up.

 

Amy Hageman  46:03

So I'm going to plant the seed and we're going to come back to it, but I was thinking about couples, because I'm a two and my four was my release. And I was thinking if I was in a couple with a number one, and I'm like, Let's go on a date. Let's go something do four-sie. That's like a real challenge for my partner.

 

Stephanie Foy  46:18

Yes. Oh, yeah. Let's go. Yeah, I'd like that doesn't sound fun.

 

Amy Hageman  46:23

So we'll pin that and come back to it. But I think the idea of looking at relationships is interesting. Okay, so let's go to number three and talk release and stretch. Okay,

 

Stephanie Foy  46:33

so number three, their release line is to be more is a six. So Oh, anticipating and anticipating, instead of going full bore head, which is what I can do. And in this case, a six because they're skeptical, and because they're loyal. They're very loyal. So they're loyal to group, whereas sometimes the three is not. Okay. So, uh, three needs to work on putting the team first honoring their own insights and, and being more emotionally available. And then also, being willing to be more authentic and exposed and honest. Because, you know, threes, sometimes it's not that they're being dishonest, but they're just not fully exposing, because they're so busy trying to be successful. Right, right. You know, the honesty is gonna get in my way you get into the goal, right?

 

Stephanie Foy  47:38

So, then the stretch line for the three, you're gonna think this is funny. Here's the nine. Hello, oh, pacemaker.

 

Amy Hageman  47:50

You know, yeah, that makes sense.

 

Stephanie Foy  47:53

They and remember, people in the nine category, remember, they're slow. They

 

Amy Hageman  48:00

want to get to gather all the data, make sure everybody's happy.

 

Stephanie Foy  48:03

They want to have harmony, they're going to be accepting and accommodating. That's not a natural, that's not the natural tendency for the three. So learning to collaborate, learning to relax, learning to have humility. Those are stretch areas for the three.

 

Amy Hageman  48:25

Interesting, okay, so let's go to four.

 

Stephanie Foy  48:27

Okay, for the release line on the four is the one, they need to take care of business that makes the test they need to practice precision, and they need to be more assertive when they share their thinking.

 

Amy Hageman  48:43

Okay, yep, I can see that.

 

Stephanie Foy  48:47

And then the stretch line for the four is the two. So they need to be more optimistic, be easy and comfortable to deal with. Because sometimes fours are a little bit Prickly, because remember, they have to be authentic and unique. Whereas twos more accommodating, and then focusing on others, whereas those fours are so individualistic. It's that's a stretch to go to where the two is. Yep. in how they regard others.

Okay, fives.

The release line for the five now remember, the five is the quiet specialist. Okay, yep. So the release line for the five is eight. Claim your power take up more space. assert yourself. So there's somebody within our circle Yes, it's very much a five. Yes, you can. And so moving into that eight that's a whoa you know, but gives you gives you gives you energy to move into your release lines.

 

Amy Hageman  50:03

Well, and everybody that's around that five that you and I are thinking of. It's like when they step into eight, we're all like, where are you been? Glad you're here. We've all been waiting. Ready for you to be the eight?

 

Stephanie Foy

Yes, yeah. Come on and show up here. Okay, so then the stretch line for the five. Remember, they're quiet specialists. They're going deep. They're methodical. They're analyzing. Well, they need to become more spontaneous. allow their energy to flow. Have more fun. So they need to stretch into the seven, seven.

And then the sixes. Remember, those are our loyal skeptics. Yep. So their release is the nine. So Oh, okay. So let's be they need to spend on going with the flow. They need to relax. They need to give themselves permission to connect with nature and themselves. In a way that's different. Because there's so yeah, you know, things waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

Amy Hageman  51:17

Right. Risk assessors?

 

Stephanie Foy  51:18

Yes, they are. Yeah. Well, and it's really interesting. So there's a group that I'm working with that the person who's over compliance.

 

Amy Hageman  51:30

Six, six.

 

Stephanie Foy  51:33

Okay, so perfect, but he's in a perfect roll. Yeah, no, yeah. Good roll. Okay. So the stretch lines for the six is the three. So focusing on results, taking credit for their contributions, taking action, because threes are highly action oriented. So sixes because they're so anxious, and they're so concerned about what could happen that sometimes they get frozen in inaction by trying to dive in. Right? Okay. Okay, sevens.

 

Amy Hageman  52:07

So sevens are the ones that I idealize. Not just because my older brother, but because there's some other people that we know. So I'm always like, seven. There's nothing wrong with the seven they don't have a stretch.

 

Stephanie Foy  52:17

Yeah, yeah, the sevens they need to spend time alone. They need to learn how to manage their own energy, because their energy, you know, can just be like, all over the place.

 

Amy Hageman  52:29

Yeah. Okay.

 

Stephanie Foy  52:30

You know that you experienced that. And they need to be willing to acquire a depth of knowledge. They need to be willing to spend the time and the focus to acquire deeper knowledge than sometimes they would, they just hit the surface and keep going. Okay,

 

Amy Hageman  52:52

so what's their release?

And the release, the release for the seven is the five.

Okay, the quiet skeptic?

 

Stephanie Foy  53:02

Yes. And their stretch is the one. Oh, stop completing tasks early, taking time to do things, right. Paying attention to the details on a regular basis.

 

Amy Hageman  53:20

Yeah, this is really interesting. So they're all like equilateral triangles.

 

Stephanie Foy  53:25

They're all they're not quite triangles, but they're close. Okay. 369 is the true triangle and everything else is sort of triangles, but not exactly. And then Okay, so we did sevens.

Okay, how about eight, eight. You're gonna love this. So the release line for the eight is to go towards two.

 

Amy Hageman  53:50

That is so weird. Eight that I know. And I'm like, really? All right. Yeah.

 

Stephanie Foy  53:57

So allowing their warmth to show. I'm acknowledging the best and others. Nurturing, generosity, nurturing spirit.

 

Amy Hageman  54:18

 That's a release. That's interesting. I would have thought that that would be their stretch.

 

Stephanie Foy  54:24

Right? Oh, and then their stretch line for the eight is the five taking time out because you know, they're large and in charge they're bulls, they're going, you know, full speed ahead. So to take time back and to be quiet, you know, and to conserve their energy and honor their mind. Like, that's a whole think about the eight you know, and you know, are they a regular meditator? Probably not, you know, Like, right, you just think about so. So that's so moving into that quiet specialist is gonna, you know if they could do that you think about what kind of growth that would give them.

Because, you know, when they when they do sit and they do reflect and they do gain that in that insight and that wisdom from being quiet and from being reflective, then when they go out into action, when they go back into their eight, they're taking so much wisdom, but most of the time, the eights just get they're just out here doing doing doing doing. Right, right. Okay, nine, so that's our last number. So the release line for the nine is to move towards three, which is to move into action. Focus on the results, develop a self confidence be more directive. Set goals.

 

Amy Hageman  55:57

And was it not? Wasn't threes? Stretch number nine. So do those numbers all did it? Do the triangles always flow? Like if nines numbers..  were nines number six and three or no?

 

Stephanie Foy  56:10

Yes. Nine's numbers are six and three, threes numbers are six and six, nine.

 

Amy Hageman  56:14

Okay, good. Okay, so that's always the case. Yes. So whatever. Your triangulated with your aksha Oh, interesting. Okay.

 

Stephanie Foy  56:23

So you're always trying to let it 248, 824.

 

Amy Hageman  56:29

Yep. Okay, and then one, five and seven. Yeah. Oh, okay. Okay, so Sorry, I interrupted at nine.

 

Stephanie Foy  56:37

So nine, the release is the three which is taking action being directive not being passive, being accommodating. And then they're stressed stretch. is six. trusting their insights?

Being courageous, analyzing risk.

 

Amy Hageman  56:59

I was gonna say to me, nine feels more emotional, and six feels more analytical. So gosh, that's so interesting. To me. I need to look up the term sacred geometry, you know, that term?

 

Stephanie Foy  57:19

Yes. And there's lots of conversation how the Enneagram is part of that sacred geometry that was, you know, in the 18s...

 

Amy Hageman  57:27

Right. It seems like it must be fair to the way that the number and it makes sense. Yeah. Which is so funny that I was like, I don't understand and eight. So, I know we're going long, but I assume you can go along with me, because it's just such interesting information.

So we touched a little bit earlier on like relationships. And I was I was calling out before I even realized the numbers about two, four and eight. I was thinking about one of my children who I would guess is a one. And you were saying that four is hard for them?

 

Stephanie Foy  58:06

Their stretch line is four, yes.

 

Amy Hageman  58:12

And so I was thinking how as a two four is feels so good and nurturing to me that that's that's where I want to go to relate to people as I want to go to the four. Yeah. But that's going to be really painful for one.

In general, I'm curious, do you do you do a lot of you know, either parent coaching or one to one relationship coaching? Do you prefer working with organizations where you're looking at, okay, like, what numbers are present in the room? And what isn't? Like, how do you personally like to work with the Enneagram?

 

Stephanie Foy  58:49

Always anyway, because to me, it's like, any door, that's the way in for people to gain awareness, wherever, whatever that looks like for them. So lots of work that I get to do is around organization. So I'm doing the Enneagram with the team, or with an individual. And the lovely thing about the integrative the IQ nine is that we have the capacity to do teams reports, and we have the capacity to do couples reports. So it really gives it not only takes the content of the individual, but it really puts it in context of the relationship, whether it's the team or the couple. So that's really fun. So to me, it's like whatever is the doorway, whatever shows up, there's there's opportunity there to learn and to grow.

 

Amy Hageman  59:41

Yeah. So I would say compared to most humans on the planet, you have a lot of awareness, not just about your own self, but also just you you've been exposed to a lot of different lenses and a lot of different tools. When you when Enneagram came into your life, your children were all adults already. But I'm curious, since learning the Enneagram, and being able to identify your adult children's types, obviously me included, do you feel as though it has helped you parent differently? And I know we're adults. So parenting looks very different. But still, even as adult children, we want your support and so has it?

 

Stephanie Foy  1:00:21

Yes. Yes, because it's given me a lot more. I'll just say patience.

[AMY LAUGHS]

 

Stephanie Foy  1:00:37

I'll ask you, do you believe that's true? Because what I feel like is that I have a different lens through which to view each of you, because now I can, I can see you differently.

 

Amy Hageman  1:00:54

I, I feel like it's true. I wouldn't have guessed when you said patience, I wouldn't have guessed that, which is partially why it's funny, but it makes sense. I definitely feel as though some of the conversations that we've had, since we've identified my counter type two our conversations that we've had before. But because we have the common lingo, we it's like we're able to have them more accurately and with more substance. It was sort of like before we would kind of dance around a topic, whereas now we can call it a topic. "This is you being a two and like, this is Shadow two, let's figure it out." You know?

 

Stephanie Foy  1:01:33

Yes, yes, exactly. So that, to me is also the value of working with the Enneagram in teams or in couples, because it does give you a language that affords each of the people in the team or the couple, the opportunity to engage with each other. And it's not a make wrong. Does that makes sense? I hope that... like in the conversation, you were just talking about, "okay, this is just you being a two and this is the shadow side of two." It's not like you Amy are a bad wrong person. This is just you've dipped over into that dark side of two, let's shine some light on that. So to me, it really can give people such a hopeful, positive way to deal with differences.

 

Amy Hageman  1:02:28

Right? I think for me, it when you learn about other people's numbers, it's so humanizing. Like for me, the idea of the number eight was like not even human to me, because that's so different. And so if an eight was to try to explain to me that they were in pain, I think there's a large part of me that wouldn't have even believed them. Right? Because their experience is so different from my own, my brain doesn't know how to make sense of it. So for me, like now, having a greater understanding of eight, if that eight in my life came to me and said, This is really painful. I could believe them differently. Whereas before, I couldn't have even believed it, because what they're describing as painful isn't painful to me. 

It's so helpful to have those things. And I think it's also helpful, you know, I would guess as a three, it's probably hard for you to slow down and put up with all the other numbers in your life, for me as a two, I've been realizing how often I've actually sabotaged relationships. Because my self-pres two keeps me on. "But do you like me? Isn't this about me? But do you like me?" Whereas I'll look back and go, Oh, they were just genuinely reaching out because they wanted support. And if I hadn't made it about whether or not they liked me, I could have just genuinely supported them and like, done the high road two. But until I had identified that aspect of myself, I never would have caught it.

 

Stephanie Foy  1:03:54

Yeah, so that's, that's the absolute to me, the value of, of working with the Enneagram is really just to develop greater and greater self awareness. And to me working with the Enneagram it's not like, Okay, I did the assessment debrief. Done. No, it's like an okay, so here's a question.

So people do ask, do my numbers change? So typically, what is your core number is not going to change, and there's lots of conversation about is it nature? Is it nurture? Were you born that way? What we don't really know. But so what we do think and what we have shown over time, is that people's core number doesn't change. So you're always going to be a two.

How aware you are as a two should change. What's your level of awareness, what's your level of integration, that should change. And so hopefully, you're more mature to you're more enlightened to as you go along. And, the truth is, things change our life changes, you know, we live life experiences that cause us to, to revert back or to have a have a new situation around which we have to reassemble and re examine. Okay, what am I going to do here? How am I going to work through this?

 

Amy Hageman  1:05:21

Being a two as a business owner is very different than being a two as an assistant store manager. Yes, being a two as a parent is a very, very different experience than being a two as a wife. Whoa, there's layers and aspects.

 

Stephanie Foy  1:05:39

To me, it's like, you see the value of self understanding and self awareness through the lens of the Enneagram. To apply two, to wife two, mother two, daughter two, business owner two, you know, all of those things.

 

Amy Hageman  1:06:00

Oh, man, well, I'm so excited. I actually, before we started our call, I was recording the podcast episode that's going to air after this one. And the topic is, what is the assignment? And so like, the assignment is always to show up as love in the world, that's the assignment. But then what does that mean? And I think you can't know the answer to that unless you know yourself well enough.

 

Stephanie Foy  1:06:24

Right? Well, and well, let's, let's take, let's think about this. Think about how each of those numbers, how love would be expressed.

 

Amy Hageman  1:06:37

Exactly.

 

Stephanie Foy  1:06:38

Because, you know, an eight is not gonna love like a two, right? It's gonna be very different, it's gonna be very different. And they're gonna think they're loving.

 

Amy Hageman  1:06:48

And then they might be they are, it's, yeah, and

 

Stephanie Foy  1:06:51

But somebody else.. and that's, you know, that's really the value of understanding. Because let's say that you're, you're working with somebody, or you're in a relationship with somebody who's a very different type from you. And it's like, they're thinking that they're being loving and attentive. And you're going what, what? No, yes, you're not. And I give them a need. Right? Yeah. You're not giving me what I need. I need you to do this way, or I need you to be that way. So I think it just gives people more. It can give people more space, to be gracious to others, and to allow space for other people to show up fully.

 

Amy Hageman  1:07:38

Absolutely. And it's a great tool for increasing your awareness of self and of other so that you can know what the assignment is, you know, whether that's love or growth or healing. What's the shadow? What's the other edge of the sword?

 

Stephanie Foy  1:07:57

Where's my high side? Where's my low side?

 

Amy Hageman  1:07:59

Yes. Well, Stephanie Foy before we sign off, if anybody wants to follow up with you about Enneagram, or has questions, where can they find you?

 

Stephanie Foy  1:08:08

They can find me at Foyandassociates.co. And there's a link on the website to the Enneagram and information there about how to find me and how to how to pursue any grant for yourself or your loved ones, or your team or your organization.

 

Amy Hageman  1:08:26

Perfect, thank you. And we'll have I will have images, or links to images in the show notes as as we discussed. So, thank you for staying on with me and going a little over. This was such a lovely, fun, just conversation. I think, compared to other Enneagram conversations I've heard on podcasts. I've never heard this much discussion with the wings and the stretch and release. So I think everybody's gonna get a lot out of it. And I so appreciate your time.

 

Stephanie Foy  1:08:50

Sure. It was fun. Glad to do it.

 

Amy Hageman  1:08:52

All right. Thanks, everyone. Bye bye.