Introduction to the Enneagram
Apr 13, 2024
Introduction to the Enneagram
Overview:
In this introduction episode to the Enneagram season, Amy Hageman talks to her parents Dana and Stephanie Foy about their Enneagram journeys and insights. They discuss Enneagram types, subtypes, centers of intelligence/expression, wings, lines, stances, and more - providing an overview of the depth and complexity of the Enneagram typology system.
Key Takeaways:
- Enneagram type represents your core identity and worldview
- Subtypes influence how you express your type through relationships, groups, or individually
- Centers of intelligence/expression provide insight into thinking, feeling, and acting styles
- Wings and lines offer opportunities for personal growth and flexibility under stress
- Understanding types helps create space for others and foster loving relationships
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Transcript
Introduction
Stephanie Foy 0:00
What is most innate to us is our type. And our subtype, within the next most comfortable places our wings, but you're right, the lines are harder to access. And it takes awareness. So if you have no awareness, you're probably not going to access the lines, you're going to just so to me, that's part of the value of the Enneagram is that we can bring things to our awareness. And when we have awareness, then we have the opportunity to choose. Otherwise, we're acting out of pattern behavior. And we're going to do what they always say get with Joy Scott.
Amy Hageman 0:40
This season on the living out love podcast, we are focusing on you, who you are, what motivates you, what you're here to contribute, and how you can expand will be utilizing my leadership skills and spiritual connection. diving deep into the Enneagram and astrology. Listen every week to become intimately aware of yourself. Only then can heal and grow. Let's get to work love's. Hello, love's Welcome back to the podcast. I am always thrilled to be here. But I'm especially thrilled to be here for two reasons a my voice is finally getting better. And b i have two special guests. This time, it's my first episode to have two guests. And we're talking about the Enneagram if you're new to the podcast are new to the Enneagram last season, we did three different episodes with my mom Stephanie Foy, where we talked about the Enneagram she gave me some Enneagram coaching, she and I did a joint coaching, so you can check out those episodes, links are in the show notes. But today, I'm excited to invite my dad Dana Foy, who is now also a certified Enneagram. practitioner. So dad, welcome to the show. Why don't you tell us you know about who you are and your journey with the Enneagram
Dana Foy 2:02
Oh, my name is Dana for I am 67 years old. And I had my Enneagram questionnaire in December 2018. And when I received that it was so helpful, enlightened to me on why I am the way I am I activator doing crowds are explained to me. All my life, I had felt awkward and uncomfortable in social situations. So after taking that questionnaire, I understood why I am the way I am, it has helped me go forward. This gives me some tools where I'm now more comfortable around people and just going around the world, I experienced life with more ease and grace.
Amy Hageman 2:47
And what made you want to pursue a certification and the Enneagram,
Dana Foy 2:53
it was just really helpful to me. And I wanted to learn more. And then as I talked to people about it, they want to learn more. And as I got involved, they had the same experience I had, they felt relieved, they understood themselves better. Also, the same experience, I have now that I understand how the new crime works, the different types of personalities people have and the vices and virtues of each. I now understand people better I have more compassion and empathy. And that his helps me be more mature, have patience with people and get along with them better.
Amy Hageman 3:29
So you're hoping to share the experience that you had? You're hoping to share that with others?
Dana Foy 3:35
Oh, absolutely. Yes. And I'm getting the kind of feedback from folks that it is helping him as it was. Yeah, yeah.
What is the Enneagram?
Amy Hageman 3:44
So mom before I invite you in to talk, and just audience so you'll know, I'm gonna go back and forth between mom and dad and Dana and Stephanie, just depending on the on the context. But I wanted to explain why, why we're doing this introduction episode. So in the first episode of the season of the podcast, I talked about how we're going to be going into each number individually. But before we do that, I wanted to have this introduction episode because I think a lot of people that are familiar with the Enneagram think, okay, I get my number, I'm the compassionate helper, okay, great. And they don't realize the amount of depth that the Enneagram has. And so that's why I wanted to do this overview so that we could kind of explain the depth of the Enneagram and the different functionalities, the different lenses with which the Enneagram works. And then that will set all of us up better. So when we do the individual numbers, that people will be more more prepared. So, mom, Stephanie, Floyd, why don't you just tell us briefly, what, what is the Enneagram number, like when people say, Oh, I'm a two or I'm a seven. What does that mean?
Stephanie Foy 4:58
Okay, so, your number is your, what we would call it your type, or your personality profile. And it's your base type, and it addresses how you view the world. What are your vices? What are your virtues? And it sort of centers you in? What is it that you're to bring to the world? Maybe in this lifetime? What is it you're to learn in this lifetime? And I say lactose, specifically, because I think, you know, I don't know what's what, but for this round, this is what you're doing. And what we know about Thai is it doesn't change. Now, you may grow and mature in your expression of type, but your type is the same. From the time you know, you develop a personality until you're no longer here. So Thai is your number. And that's your baseline for expression of the Enneagram.
Amy Hageman 6:01
Okay, and so then then, like the first immediate layer of the Enneagram, that is the easiest to see visually. And we'll have, we'll have the image up on the screen for those of you that are on YouTube. And if you're not on YouTube, you can find it on my website. But the first thing that's the easiest to see is the wings. So when you somebody tell us what the wings are.
Stephanie Foy 6:24
Okay, so can I step back? Yes. The way I think about the Enneagram, in the value of its, as a tool for personal transformation, is to start with center and move out. So the center is your type. So we want to go deep and type first, really understand your your specific number one, two through nine, then the second layer of that, before we get to wings, is the subtypes. Because that flavors your type in addresses, your instinct, your desire, your motivation. So couple that with your worldview, how you view the world, what's yours to accomplish in the world, now you have an expression of how you're going to go about doing that. So there's three subtypes, the SP, the SX, and the so the SP is self preservation. So those people are tendency to interact and view the world through, how do I show up? How do I get what I need to be okay in the world. And it's not just a selfish view, because their perception is people who think, okay, if I handle myself, then other people will handle themselves and we'll all get along fine. So that's SP, S X folks, their focus is on relationship. And they're going to do their life, their work through the expression in relationship and relationship is key. So it's that one to one as called SX, because it was originally called sexual or sensual type, because it really is about making those very intimate connections with one other person. And in some cases, not just one person, your whole lifetime, but serial one to one connection. So those SX tops are always going to be looking to express their profile and use their self in relationship. Now, the S O people. Those are called socials. And those folks are looking to express their type in groups. So in a group setting in some people call them that's the herd instinct. So they tend to view things from a more what we might think of as a macro level. So they're looking to see how How's an organization working? Or how is a community working or so they tend to sort of look at bigger scope, and how, how the bigger intricate intricacies and parts work. So how do they express themselves in a large group? So we really want to look to me, the subtypes are an opportunity to see how is it that I'm working through my type, with my motivation, with my instinct to show up in the world? So that's the first thing so before we get to wings, it's like, let's focus on go deeper, go deeper in type and then we go out to wings. Well,
Amy Hageman 9:40
and that makes sense. In our family. We have three twos. Yes, we do. Three of us are all three different subtypes. And you can see how that plays out differently between the three of us. It's an interesting, so I want to go back to what you said. Before that you said I identify Your type, and I don't remember if you said, head heart gut or thinking feeling doing like that was the initial? What is that called? And how does that?
Stephanie Foy 10:15
Right? Yeah, so what we call that your three centers of intelligence. So just like we would think of so to me, the Enneagram is a very holistic tool, because it's looking at how you express yourself in mind, body, and spirit, your feelings. So we look at each of those elements. And some centers are centered more, some profile types, so eight nines and ones, they're in what we call the gut triad. So they're in the body triad. The two threes and fours are in the feeling triad, and five, six, and seven are in the thinking triad. So each of those has a dominant influence, in terms of how those folks interact in the world. We also have emotions that are tied to each of those triads. So, the 891 triad, the gut triad, they, their their typical emotion, the first emotion, the reactionary emotion is anger, and how they express anger shows up differently depending upon their type, the feeling triad, the two threes and fours, they go into shame, shame is their first typical reaction, then what they're looking to sort of mitigate in their lives. And then the thinking triad, the five, six, and sevens, their gut, and emotion is fear. So they're looking to manage and mitigate fear across their lifetime. So, so each of those, that's not to say that we don't all have a very rich emotional life, we do. But that's just a way to begin to understand how each of the triads shows up in terms of their emotional stance and their interactions.
Dana Foy's Enneagram Journey
Amy Hageman 12:13
So I'm curious and dad, maybe you'll have something to say this, maybe you won't. But in just knowing a your own dominant center, so like, as a nine, your dominant center was the gut. And then your dominant emotion was anger. So knowing your own dominant center, and then also having the reflection that other numbers have different or other types have different dominant centers? How did has that information in and of itself? How has it either been helpful for you? Or why is it helpful for us to have in general? Well,
Dana Foy 12:53
you'll see some Oh, my gut motion is fear. That and also, I'm a very emotional person, that I know when I go into a situation where I'm not conscious. And I know that I'm going to walk in and fear and my emotions are going to be in control of whatever I'm deciding to do what not to do. Well, you take the IQ, nine tests, it'll show you what percent is or how much you have available that you're using. And the three different triads you know, it'll just the centers of intelligence with Stephanie spoke of, I'm more, I think, along the centers of expression. That's where I come from. And that's thinking, feeling and acting. And I'm a big feeler, secondary thinker, third party acting, so when I get in stress, and I need to get myself out of it, I used as soon as an expression most of the time, what I need to do is take action. On My Mind, we tend to move slowly think a lot ruminate a lot, and not take action in a timely fashion. So I know when I'm going in, if I'm under stress that I'm probably thinking and feeling mostly feeling. Sometimes mostly thinking I'm not taking a lot of action, my action is suppressed. So once you know your type, and you're familiar with it, you know how to use those things in your favor. What do I need to change? How can I be different? What do I need to do?
Amy Hageman 14:21
So you said that Stephanie said she referenced centers of intelligence and you referenced centers of expression, right? Are those the same in terms of the 891 would have the same center of expression the 234 Now
Dana Foy 14:39
when you take the IQ nine test, you'll find that different people based upon their number, their type and how they live out there will have their life playoffs will have been concentrated in one of the trials more than the other when you're one of them one one piece of the trial more than others.
Stephanie Foy 14:53
So let me just add Amy that IEQ nine added a whole element In addition to the typing profile, so centers of intelligence is what we would consider sort of baseline Enneagram. Centers of expression is an added measure that's added by IQ nine, that gives a more complex view of the person. So it's not, it is true, what that was saying is that not all nines will have high expression in the body center. But like for him, he has high expression in the feeling center, second, and thinking third in body. So,
Amy Hageman 15:39
okay, that's helpful, because I just wanted to be clear, right? For people listening, that if you just go take an Enneagram quiz somewhere, and you find out your number that will tell you, your center of intelligence based on your number, but it's not going to tell you your center of expression.
Enneagram Types and Subtypes
Stephanie Foy 15:55
Exactly. Well, I'm wondering if I can take just a second and address that whole concept about, can you go out there and taking the Enneagram? Test? Yes, you can. There are everywhere you just search Enneagram on the website, and you know, on Google, you will find hundreds. But here's the thing. Most of them have little scientific research behind them. And some research suggests that the close so I EQ nine averages at about 96% validity, reliability, in other words, accuracy, it's going to hit people 96% of the time. So four out of 100 might miss type, but mostly, if you answer honestly, and you really answer how you show up in your own life, it's going to give you the right. The next closest one, by our understanding in scientific, you know, what's been proven? Is it about 57%. So what you're getting out there on the internet might or might not be right, because there's just not much science behind it. Right. Whereas the IQ nine, the company has invested a lot of money and continues to invest a lot in research and continuing to validate the questionnaire. And so instead of just taking a questionnaire that maybe, I don't know, 30 to 60 questions, the IQ nine is made up of a question bank of over 1200 questions. And you can think of it like a funnel that you start out with a lot of questions and you answer a few and then it funnels you down and you answer a few more and it funnels you down. So that's how they get to having such accurate expressions of people's types.
Amy Hageman 17:45
Yeah. Okay. have a sense of the types, your number, it doesn't change. And we have a sense of the subtypes. So within your number you might be so social SX, the one to one and SP the self Pres. And then we within all of that we have an understanding of our types have a center of intelligence. And within that, as individuals, we have our own centers of expression. So now I know myself pretty well. Okay, what do I learn next.
Stephanie Foy 18:26
So I like to think of it as going from center to circumference. So we're going to build out. So our next step is to look at Wings, because that's the next, if you look at the graphic of the circle, the wings are the two numbers on either side of your number. So as a two, your wings will be one and three. As a three, My wings are two and four. So you can think about that. So that's relatively close, you share some traits with your wings, but there's enough distinction that they're one and you're too and so but they have relatively easy access to those numbers. And we do two wings. Now in the Intagram community, you'll hear people talk about, oh, I'm a three with a four wing, we'll birds just have one length plan circles. We don't want to be people that fly in circles. So we want to have both wings now. But it's like our hands. One may be dominant, you know, most people are right handed or left handed and then their second one is kind of secondary. So we think about wings that we can typically have one that may be dominant, but there's lots of opportunity for us to be m by winged ambidextrous so we want to learn to use an axe with both wings. So the wings then are opportunities for us to look to see, okay, we've got a situation and maybe my normal way of being is not going to work or I need Need to flex, I need to show up a little differently, or I'm encountering a problem. I've got a problem in a relationship, and I need to shift it. So looking at our wings is an opportunity to say, Okay, how might this influence me, as a two? You might think, Okay, what's a one strict perfectionist, they're going to have a lot of attention to detail, they're going to have a lot of attention to doing the right thing having they're being very principled, very value centered, that's what a one brings. Three brings lots of action, they have the, you know, their tasks, there are people who like to get things done. So you can think about, okay, what is it that I need in this moment? And how might I lean on our draw for my wings to move me in the direction that I'd like to go?
Amy Hageman 20:52
Okay. So it feels to me like, the wings could also be a bit of a personality thing, like, I'm a two and if I go more, three, I'd have a different personality than if I went more one.
Stephanie Foy 21:14
So typically, your personality is going to be the same. It's just how you want to apply that how you want to leverage your personality to achieve the outcomes, your aims in life, you know, whether it's
Amy Hageman 21:33
think of an example.
Stephanie Foy 21:36
Okay, so, um, Thursday morning, I had an opportunity to go with a woman who I don't know her type. But we had an activity thing we needed to do together? Well, I would have as a three, I would have just gone in there and I threes make decisions fast. There's no reason to pussyfoot around, just get in there and get the work done. Get out, you know, I probably would have approached that in that way. But my wisdom said, once I was kind of in the situation, and I didn't know this woman real well. I was like, Oh, she, she's not going to move fast. And so I need to slow my roll down, you know, like, I need to, so I needed to lean into to, I needed to lean into that considerate helper, and shift my role out of leader take charge into slow the roll, let her be in charge, attend to the relationship, attend to her feelings, what was important to her, and help her have what we needed to help her get done what we needed to get done. Okay, okay.
Amy Hageman 22:57
And so because it's a wing, like you're gonna have an easier time going to to consider it helper than you would go to, let's say six, which was I forgot what six is called? Six is the loyal skeptic. Yeah. So because six is not a wing of you have your three you can is that would be way harder for you to get to then the two are the four. Right? Okay. Okay. So it's almost like, it gives us this spectrum of behavior of motivation with which that we can play on bright
Stephanie Foy 23:32
Latitude in our behavior. Yeah, please do. Okay,
Dana Foy 23:35
so you, I'm a nine. And I am surrounded by one and eight. Actually, I'm a composite of all those three, and nine is dominant. I'm very heavy nine. But since I'm a composite of those, all the vices and virtues of my winnings are easy for me to identify with and easy for me to think about. It easy for me to do it, because because they're the next two strongest parts of me. So that's why it's so easy to be conscious and decide like Stephanie did, I need to throw some, some two in here. And it's easy to grab onto that it's sort of a natural thing to do. Yeah,
Amy Hageman 24:13
that's all you bring up a point I was going to I was going to ask too, because when I was reading just the different numbers. The one I don't relate to the one at all, but when I read the shadow stuff, and like the weaknesses of the one, I was like, Well, I relate to all of those, you know, so that's interesting that like, the it's the composite and that the vices and the virtues sort of still apply. In some some regard. Yes, mom, right.
Stephanie Foy 24:42
Just step out. So back to my Thursday example. So I in thinking about that, I thought, okay, there's two things here I need to draw on I want to go back to want to draw on the subtype SX, because this is a one to one relationship. So my SP, I need to let it sort of fit shape fade back a little bit and move more towards SX, the subtype SX coupled with the type two energy. Now I could one be peaceful because I could just not be anxious about trying to get things done, which would be my normal three like, let's get this done. So moving into SX and leaning into two now it makes me in a better position to engage with this person. And this is a person that I hope I'll have a long healthy relationship with. So I didn't want to get started on the wrong foot.
Amy Hageman 25:40
Right, right.Okay, so we've already covered a lot of ground, we got our types, we got our dominance centers or centers of expressions, we got our subtypes. Now we got our wings.
Stephanie Foy 25:54
Where do we go next? Okay, so the last agenda, do you want to add
Amy Hageman 25:59
some time? Okay,
Enneagram Lines, Stretch and Release
Dana Foy 26:00
so the next step of the lines, and when you have the unigram graph in front of you the the logo will see that there are lines going from piece number one going away when going across any rams and three, so I'm a nine. So my lines go to six into three, and text a little more work for me to access to three and six, because they're not part of my composite number. And pretty much the numbers on your line are describing behaviors, opposite of what you typically do and your dominant. So a nine, we are playfully described as meditating elephants, we will slowly about the world, take our time making the decision. And some people say we procrastinate, I call it allowing. And sometimes the rest of the world can't wait on me allowing something to happen. So the three is one of my lines, and that is the competitive achiever. So if I'm under stress and need to get something done, I can go to my three, that's an easy release point. Readers are competitive achievers, threes are action oriented. You know, I, like I said early, I'm very emotional, well, threes are very action oriented, they're gonna get the stuff done, and feelings are secondary. So if I've got something that I need to get worked on in a hurry, I can, I can pull up the three and see how they are. And I can access that. And I'm really good at that. Because I practice. Now it comes time to do a bigger project. That's where I go to my six, the loyal skeptic, one of the one of the things that sixes have is courage. They, the six, the little skeptic, one of the things they do is they manage fear, so that it takes courage to face fear and come up with processes and ways to mitigate it. So when there's something that I'm kind of afraid to do is not typically typically a shy guy, and don't normally speak in front of groups. So when it comes time for me to say, You know what I've got to speak, I can go to my six. And I can realize that what's what's in this six is was is within me, and I can find the courage. And I can go to a three and I can get the energy to do what I need to do to who to when I find the courage to get the work that I need to get done to show up and, and be bigger than the nine that I am. So I hope that comes across as accurate. Stephanie, what do you think you want to add to that?
Stephanie Foy 28:25
No, I would just say it's true that so the lines represent, typically, US where you go under stress, you know, like, Oh, I'm under stress, and this is not working for me, I need to do something else. So there's a stress point. And there's a release point. And also, I think that just like you were talking about earlier, how the how the wings are closer to our number, and the lines are, you know, like opposite or on the other side are connected to us, but in a different way. So they're typically not as easy to access. But they're places that when we go when we move in that direction, when we access that part, then it can yield big benefit. Because oftentimes, that's the place where like that said, you know, the three is almost like opposite of benign. So that's a stretch point. Like if you want to really grow yourself moving into the lines is an opportunity that's going to take you like to the next level. So that's what I say it's like we've built type, we've added subtype, we've gone to wings. Now with a little further out. A step further out is going to the lines. So you as a to, you know your lines are two, eight and two, four.
Amy Hageman 29:44
So, choose as
Stephanie Foy 29:46
a considerate helper. It's a stretch to think about being an active controller. Doesn't that feel like opposite energy? Uh huh. But on the other hand, if you are in that position where you need that, you know, I'm thinking about, okay, you're chaperoning, you know, the kindergarteners to the livestock show, probably a little eight energy would be good. Like they need a little controlling. They don't need helpers that, you know, they only have in the helping themselves. So a little eight energy would be good because remember what eights bring is they bring protective energy, they bring control. And in some cases, you know, it could be like everything else, it could be low side, but it can be high side. And that high side is protection, the high side is watching out for problems and addressing problems before they occur. So that's hot, it's eight energy, and it fills count very countered to two, but there's opportunity in it for two. Then the other side, the other line for two is the four, which is the intense creative. So that's an outlet for twos, which is to move into their creativity. And that sort of can help regenerate them. So having some sort of anyway, so yeah, lines. Well, and I think
Amy Hageman 31:17
I'm thinking back to me historically, and you both know me, so I'm thinking of me in college and post college and a relationship that I was in this whole season of life. And had I known that Enneagram, maybe I would have done it differently. But what I think I did to manage what was a hard season is I really leaned into four, because that was comfortable for me. Where perhaps I would have been better served had I leaned into eight, but that felt like a bigger stretch. Yes. And so what what you said earlier that I just want to repeat is like when you do it? Well. You know, like, these are the lines should you choose to accept and when you do it well. Because I'm my suspicion just based on my own history is that you can choose not to take the stretch. Sure, you could you could choose to bury your head in the release, or just keep trying to swim on the wings. It's not like the stretch is is this automatic, intuitive thing. You know, even for me, it's not an intuitive place to go. Right. And so, I really I'm so cute. Like, I'm like if I had known the Enneagram. If I had an Enneagram. Coach back then like what what might I have done differently? Yeah,
Stephanie Foy 32:37
Absolutely. And you're absolutely correct. So what is most innate to us as our type, and our subtype, within the next most comfortable places are wings. But you're right, the lines are harder to access. And it takes awareness. So if you have no awareness, you're probably not going to access the lines, you're gonna just so to me, that's part of the value of the Enneagram is that we can bring things to our awareness. And when we have awareness, then we have the opportunity to choose. Otherwise, we're acting out of pattern behavior. And we're going to do what they always say, get what
Dana Foy 33:19
it takes practice, the more you practice, the the easier it gets. And you can practice ahead of time, if you know you're going into a situation. And I'm going to have this truckload of kids at the rodeo was not something you typically do every day, you can get ahead of it, say how's this going to be, particularly if you go on a big jump from, you know, you're by yourself and you're not have kids around, you're not responsible for and all of a sudden, you've got 20 kids, and you got to keep your your eye on them. So you can you can practice and get ahead of it. And be conscious about it. That's how that's how you get better at it. Yeah, and then I'm also the opinion, once you get practiced at it, and you use it, it'll become natural, and we'll just come out of you. Particularly if it's a if it's a subtype change or something you get from the wings, you know, the lions that that that's, that can be easier once like going into the three is easy for me because I've done it so many times. In fact, I, I get up and I have a three list for myself. This is my three minutes today. So what I want to do, and I can be pretty good at getting things done. Now the courage part, I'm still having to remember that I'm a brave guy, and I've done many scary things in my life and I can keep doing them again, I just need to practice that too. I love that you have a three list. That's a great idea. In fact, I have a name for myself. When I'm doing my three list. I call myself Trey. I go from being the human elephant or meditating elephant to tray. And then I was talking to another gentleman who is Enneagram practitioner and we were talking about, you know, maybe you have the courage to go into civics. And he said that Richard Rohr said that Jesus was a six, it took a credible amount of courage to be Jesus isn't Danny, if you're gonna call yourself Tre, when you work on on your train list, you can just call yourself haces when you work on your six list, I'm not quite ready to do that yet. But I you know, so Susie SDB, oh, she's known as the godmother of the Enneagram. She has her own situation. And she's, you know, a practitioner of Richard Ward has been at it for decades. And one of the things that we learned from her was he says, if you can name something, you can fix it. So if you can name you can go down to the list of the prices and virtues of your, your core, tie your wings, your subtypes, and what's on your lines and figure out what do I need for this situation. So for me, when I consciously call myself Three, I know I'm up to being busy, and I'm actually getting things done. And I'm gonna have my emotions on the side, I'll deal with them later. And then, you know, I'm not quite ready to call my house myself, hey, Soos, but I just sent the whole Jesus thing, I'm not quite ready to spell my name, je s U S. But I'll come up with a name like that. And I just call it and I can bring it forth. If I name it, I have a better chance of doing it.
Amy Hageman 36:22
Hmm. I love that idea. We all need to like name these kind of alter egos for ourselves.
Dana Foy 36:29
Okay, so I'm gonna get one more than an hour late. Everybody's talk. So one is one of my wings that that and the ones are strict perfectionist. And they are a harsh critic primarily on themselves. Well, I have my I have a harsh critic with me. So I just named him Ralph. Ralph was criticizing me. And getting off and re Ralph can be brutal. Oh, my God, Ralph wakes me up in the middle of the night when I'm asleep and gets on me. You know, I don't even see that one. So I just tell Ralph, Ralph Are you just shut up? You know, you and I can discuss later, Ralph, I don't need you now. Okay, I'm sleepy. I mean, I You just, you have a name for it. And you come up with a strategy to deal with a raffle Be quiet when I remember telling it's time to sleep, we can deal with you tomorrow. So it's just games that we play that work, it works for me to have a name for things.
Amy Hageman 37:22
That's beautiful.
Amy Hageman 37:23
So for me as a two with my stretch, being eight and completely not intuitive at all. I have a relationship with a person, that's an eight that I didn't understand. I just really struggled to understand and have connection with because it's so different than my Tunis. And so then learning that that person was an aid was a so helpful for my relationship with them. But be then it gave me like, an avatar of like, Oh, now I have this example of how to be an aid, you know, and I'm not going to do it the way they do it, I'm going to do it the way I do it. But it was like not only did it help me heal my relationship with that person, but it gave me like, a role model. So that's the other thing that I just I love about the Enneagram. And I love about just in general, the culture having a shared vocabulary. You know what I mean? That we have this shared vocabulary, oh, I'm a seven aroma to blah, blah, blah, that not only is it helping us on the one to one, or sorry, on the individual reflection level, but then it gives us these avenues to rewrite our stories within our relationships. And it gives us these avenues. For me, it's a lot about forgiveness, you know, and a lot of times just forgiving my own expectation, like I had this expectation that somebody would be a two and they're not, you know, and I had to I had to forgive it and having the context of what they are is so helpful.
Application and Self-Awareness
Stephanie Foy 38:58
Right? You know, we just had that study with on the book on The Four Agreements, and it's like, don't take things personally. It's like, once you have the language of the Enneagram you don't have to think that because a person did a certain thing or didn't do a certain thing that was for you or against you, you know, because the truth is, it probably wasn't it was probably just their type being their type. And so we don't have to think oh, you know, they were out to get me or that it was personal because it probably wasn't it was probably just them being what they were. Yeah. Hmm. It also opens up I think, and we were talking about language is the opportunity for people to create more clarity in their relationships, because you can speak to a person like it's not you that's not you know, it's it's not Just you personally, it's like people who are this way tend to do these things. And so I'm just thinking about it in terms of teams, and how in organizations, we don't necessarily have to ascribe behavior to the person, but it is to the type. And then that sort of gives it a bigger context. And it makes it where people I think, can hear things differently, then to be personally on the defensive.
Amy Hageman 40:35
Give me an example of that, please.
Stephanie Foy 40:37
Okay, so um, okay. So fives, want to go deep in information. But that also means they don't make decisions fast. So someone who was expecting somebody to turn around something on a project and say, Okay, here's, here's where we think I think we need to go, Well, if they were applying a three mindset, they would think they should have that decision, quick. But if they understood the person was a five, they could understand, oh, I have to give this person more time, they have to have opportunity to get the data. And then we can set a reasonable timeline. Otherwise, I might ascribe to them, that they're one either just lazy, or they don't care about the project, or it's not a priority with them, you see how I could have ascribed my own three orientation to something that was not? Right, their orientation. So once I understood their orientation, instead of having the conversation like, well, you just don't think this project is a priority? And why didn't you get that decision to me? Instead, I can say, oh, okay, wait a minute, that may or may not be the case. So now I can have a conversation with this person, is a five to say, understand, what's a reasonable timeframe for us to have a decision?
Amy Hageman 42:03
Gotcha. Okay.
Amy Hageman 42:07
I was USE IT organizations. And I was just curious, because as a family that we all have this knowledge, sometimes we'll come around the, you know, the kitchen island, and one of us will be like, Oh, God, I'm in my two, you know. And we all just know what it means to be able to hold space for one another. So I was curious if that if that dynamic is what you were referencing within organizations, because I know you've done Enneagram teamwork. It
Stephanie Foy 42:32
can be if you do if people do enough, work with it, and work with it as a team, it can definitely open that space and help people have space for one another in a different way.
Amy Hageman 42:44
Okay, yeah, that's inspiring. Um, so we've covered a lot so far. You know, we've done wings and stretch and release. And we've done a lot, where do we go from here? I have my questions. But since you guys are the teachers, where do we go next?
Dana Foy 43:05
I think Go ahead. Okay.
Stephanie Foy 43:08
I think to me, the next. I mean, to me now, it just becomes application application application every day. So here's, here's what I talk about. The Enneagram was like a tool. I think about it, like a yard spade, I can either dig out weeds, or I can plant flowers. Or I can lay that tool in my shed or in my garage and not see it again, until I have in the past by it. So to me, the Enneagram is just like that. It's a good tool. If you use it every day. If you are aware, and you bring it to your experiences in your relationships, it can help you. If you do it, once you go, Oh, I have my Enneagram type, I got my type, and then you lay it on the shelf somewhere. It's not going to do you much good. So to me, it's how do you continue to work with it? How do you continue to apply it? And then if you're really interested, there's tons of information out there. There's some great podcast, there's other great books, you can explore all kinds of things really, really related to the Enneagram and to self exploration. But you have to be interested in it. Yeah.
Subtypes and Countertypes
Amy Hageman 44:22
So there's there's two questions that I I've just personally have, I don't know how valuable they are. But in the I EQ nine version of the Enneagram. There's the three subtypes. I know that's not just specific to IQ nine. But there's also a thing called counter type. Right? Can you talk about what that what that is what that means?
Stephanie Foy 44:45
So the IQ none is the only eight online tests out there that identifies subtypes as far as we say, okay. So, counter type is within each type. So each type, there's three subtypes. So we've got 27, altogether. But for each type, one of the subtypes, causes you to be counter to that type not counter to the other subtypes, just counter to type a causes you to go count me. So for, for instance, I am I counter type three. So most threes want, because we're competitive achievers, we want to achieve and as a SX or an S O type. Most threes also want public recognition, they want to be on stage, they want to be publicly recognized, they don't, they wouldn't mind being famous, you know, as a self preservation three, I'm counter type, I don't care about that. My orientation to success is an inward measure, I'm only looking at did I make my own goals. And then whether I'm acknowledged or not, it's not important in some ways, I'd rather almost not be acknowledged. So that's I'm counter type. So type is achiever, I still have that motivation. But how it shows up out in the world is slightly different than the SX or the SF type.
Amy Hageman 46:14
So I haven't a hypothesis about counter type. My hypothesis is there might be people out there who are a counter type to their number, and thus, either test incorrectly on a generic test, or don't resonate with their, with their number on a generic test because of the counter type.
Stephanie Foy 46:37
That could be and I'm, because at first when I read three, I was like, Oh, that's not me. But then Ross Oh, it is me just show up differently. It's that the influence of the subtype?
Amy Hageman 46:51
Yeah. Okay. I think, I just think there's a lot of people out there that they feel very solid in their number, then like, they read the book, they took a quiz or whatever, they feel very solid in their number. But because they haven't done the IQ nine or because they haven't really dove in deep into the other layers of that. There's just this whole world of knowledge and expansion that they're unaware of, you know, and so it's been years since I first took the Enneagram on like a free online quiz. But I remember that I got to at the time, and I remember going maybe, I guess, like, but then when I did the IQ nine, and I read about the subtype, I was like, that could not be more true. That's 100%. You know, and for me, it was it was counter type. And so that's why I'm kinda like, Okay, I wonder if the counter type might throw it off. Sometimes for some people. It
Stephanie Foy 47:59
could, but that's part of why the IQ nine is so accurate is because they have included subtypes. And they're very clear about asking those questions that get people to their subtype. And it's part of what what they tell us. And I'm not the researcher, so I can't speak to it. But that's what they tell us is that that's part of what gives it such a high degree of accuracy.
Dana Foy 48:27
Yeah.
Amy Hageman 48:28
The other thing, there's two other things I want to talk about. One, so Dad, you mentioned Suzanne's to bill earlier as being the godmother of the the grandmother, the godmother, godmother, godmother of the Enneagram. She talks a lot about stances. And my understanding of stances is it's a combination of the dominant center and orientation to time. Is that correct?
Dana Foy 48:55
Okay, I'm gonna hand this over to Stephanie, because she does a much thorough job of explaining this. Stephanie. Okay. Are you ready?
Stephanie Foy 49:02
So chances are you're right, it is. It is about orientation to time, which I think is kind of unique to her in terms of, we don't really talk a lot about that in the IQ nuns. It's part of people's profile, but it's not a focus. And then also sort of how people get what they want in the world is what I think about So, and Suzanne's conversations, she talks about the aggressive stance, which are people that come from the three, seven and eight. And those people typically are oriented towards the future. And for the most part, they are feeling repressed. Now take this with a grain of salt because as we already talked about with the IQ nine, we've got that sinners of expression that gives a more detailed look. So that's sort of a gross generalization. Session. But where I think stances are really helpful is to think about in terms of other people, we may or may not know their type, but we can listen for their language. And we can listen for how they interact. And we can at least maybe put them in a stent. So the aggressive stance, the dependent stance, dependent being.
Stephanie Foy 50:28
We think of those two ones and ones twos and six, six wants twos and sixes, sorry, yes. And they're called dependent, not because, truthfully, although all the wording of the stances is kind of everybody goes, Oh, that's terrible. I don't want to be dependent. But it's because they are referenced by other people. So they're dependent on other people, they're there, they're ready to react inside themselves,
Dana Foy 50:58
they're looking for a signal to talk into, so they know how to respond. So they're depending upon, okay, initiate the conversation or initiate some action.
Amy Hageman 51:07
Gotcha. So,
Stephanie Foy 51:08
and those folks are oriented towards the present. So they have doesn't mean that they're, when we think of mindfulness practices that they're actually present, but that's their orientation to time. So the current, the current moment, and in their high side, in their redeem side, they can be fully present, which with whatever thing is going on. Then we have the
Amy Hageman 51:36
full one second. So you said three sevens, eights, were feeling repressed. So one, twos and sixes are
Stephanie Foy 51:47
thinking repressed. Okay, and so then that in that weird because here's six, and it's over there in the thinking quadrant, but what is the truth is sixes are typically contradicted in their thinking, Should I do this? Should I do that again? Should I should I, they're the one putting the other foot where as the twos are so emotionally available, so they're typically such high feeling. They're, they're sort of in the feeling, doing conundrum and thinking is what gets left out. Okay. And then the ones they are. They're acting and thinking they're acting and doing acting and doing so they're tend to also leave out thinking because that's, that's their orientation. So, okay, so one to six thinking repressed. But again, take that with a grain of salt. If you're doing IQ, ninth, we've got centers of expression. And then the last one is for fives, and nines, and they are tethered to the past. And they are doing our action repressed. And one, the force don't want to take action, because they're not sure that they can do it creatively enough, it has to be unique. And if they can't do it uniquely, then maybe they shouldn't do it all.
Stephanie Foy 53:19
By fives, have ahard time taking action, because there's never enough time to get enough data. There's one more data point there's, you know, so yeah. So they're going around in their thinking, they're caught in thinking, but less doing so they go, they go feeling to thinking feeling to thinking force go feeling to thinking they start with feelings, go to thinking leave out action. nines are the contradicted. So they're kind of like the 60s are contradicted with thinking they're contradict with action, should I take action should not take action is so and because their energy is lower? We all look at what's what's the cost to us. And so the action people that are actually repressed, look at what's it going to cost me. So nine is going to cost me some energy and time with five. So
Amy Hageman 54:16
yeah, I think the orientation to time that was the one other thing that I wanted to talk about as being surprisingly helpful. Especially for me, like everything I know about Enneagram is predominantly through what I've learned personally. So for me having to go to ait having an understanding of the quote, aggressive stance, but like that they're future oriented, is really helpful because I don't realize I'm not future oriented. Like there's times I think, a I think I'm thinking when I'm not thinking but be I think I'm planning for the future when I'm not. And so having that awareness of I really I need to stretch and go this direction is is really helpful. So I just think orientation to time is also interesting from the relationship perspective.
Stephanie Foy 55:07
Oh, for sure, because I'm interesting, a couple that are in our Enneagram. Class, Jesus seven, and he's a five. And she shared recently that she had come up with an idea of something that they could do, oh, we should do lon law, very typical seven energy is it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be exciting. And he says to her, why would we want to do that? And in that moment, she was like, Oh, I got it. Because there was, she's future and he's past. So there's no present here, first of all, and so there wasn't anything in his past, that would suggest that the thing she was recommending had any, was any relevance.
Relationships and the Enneagram
Dana Foy 55:53
So this couple had been married for decades. And she said, for the first time, I really understand our relationship. Wow. Yeah. So that's the value of knowing behavior types, where they're coming from?
Stephanie Foy 56:09
Yeah. So yes, I think the orientation to time is a good, you know, if nothing else, it's a good place to ask yourself in any kind of relationship? Oh, are we coming from coming at this from the same space? You know, type aside, even if we just say, just looking at orientation to time, right. Are we in in the same place? Yeah.
Amy Hageman 56:36
Well, it's interesting, you know, towards relationships, I, for a long time, have thought I had the perfect marriage, people should want my marriage, you were perfect, right. And in a lot of ways we are. But I'm like, if we're both twos. And so there's a lot of wonderful things out there that it exists for the human beings to step into, that neither one of us are naturally good at. And so we can be as parents, and as people that want to have goals and get stuff done. We can struggle to do that. Because we're so similar. And we have the same strengths and the same weaknesses. So I think that's the other interesting thing, in terms of, if you're wanting coaching, or if you're wanting to figure out, you know, and my lens of living out love, like, how do I become the person that I'm called here to be? And what does that mean, in the context of my relationship and the context of my parenting? Like, just having these understandings is so much more valuable than I think we would ever imagine? If you're somebody that's just like, found the INIA gram on Instagram,
Stephanie Foy 57:46
right? You know, it, you know, it is to me at its most useful, it is this very complex, and dynamic. It's a dynamic tool, because, yeah, it's gonna grow and change with you, as you change and grow. It's still available to bring you more insight to bring you more wisdom. And so yeah, to me, it's, like said, it could just be a learning something you read about and know, that was interesting, and you move on, or you can say, Oh, this is really a fit for me. And I can see where it can help me in my own evolution and my own growth, attention to my growth and muscles growth. Yeah, I'm curious.
Amy Hageman 58:40
So the Enneagram is based on sacred geometry. Well, it's not based on that. But at some point, sacred geometry got introduced. And that's how we have the shape and the lines. With astrology, it's a wheel. And so everything goes around in a circle and one thing leads to the next with the Enneagram. It's not quite a wheel, because there's only nine numbers, it's a symmetrical, but there's the sacred geometry of the lines. So my assumption is, but I'm curious if this is taught or not, or way off base. So for me, like the two goes to the eight, the eight goes down to the what to the six or whatever, like, I'm wondering if your soul's evolution in the context of the Enneagram is okay, I'm too heavy on two I need to go to a master eight and then I follow that line down and if you just keep going around the shape of the lines like would that be the way a soul would evolve or or did the lines like is it more for this one lifetime I guess them for in the hole of souls overall pattern.
Stephanie Foy 59:53
So I haven't heard anybody talk about going on other people's lines. Okay. For the most part, it's enough in the lifetime to just master your own. But right they also, we also teach and know that we all have all nine types as a person, but you know what percentage I am, a, an eight is probably a whole lot less than I am as a three, a two, a four, a six and a nine, those are going to be easier for me to access five is way out of my life, you know, like, I don't have any. So some teachers, depending upon who you listen to, will tell you that it's enough just to handle these parts. Now. No, no, that might be an interesting theory that if you, you know, travel the line from eight down to something else. But
Amy Hageman 1:00:50
I don't know if anybody thought about that.
Dana Foy 1:00:54
argue with you, I think if you can just manage yourself in this lifetime, that's enough. That's plenty for me. And then once you get yourself kind of, I'm gonna say figured out or used to working with it. But then you can take it a step further and work it with your spouse, your kids. What's one thing that I've always caught hinges on I found is true, it's very difficult to predict what somebody else's number is. Because they could be acting out in such a way that might You might think this person is an eight or one, but they may not be they just may be acting that out. And their core number could be something else. I've been fooled a few times, I was so convinced somebody was a certain way. And then once they were tested, and we visited, I got it. He's just under stress. So he's not acting like a nine right now. I don't know what he's doing. I'm a nine, I have a one and an eight wing is eight wing is working on it. So but but now that I know this person, I get it. He and I are very much alike. So you got to be careful when you're trying to get somebody's numbers. You know, I've been wrong more than I've been right. So I just I just give it up. I don't try.
Amy Hageman 1:02:03
Yeah, yeah. And I think with typing people, I think, as we said earlier with like stances and orientation to time, it's just helpful to have the, the frames of lenses, you know what I mean? Like, even if you don't have their type, right, you can identify, oh, they're past oriented, or oh, they're, they're doing oriented? Like that seems to be enough.
Stephanie Foy 1:02:29
To start and to start, yeah, yeah. Sometimes that's enough just to make make you have more compassion, and make you more empathetic to the other person. And then, to me, that's when you know, if we think about living out love, it's like, That's what love is having space for other people to be who they are. And so to me, the Intagram is a perfect tool to make space for other people. And yeah, in therefore be loving, be more loving. So
Dana Foy 1:03:04
you're gonna have to help me say this, because sometimes vocabulary escapes someone who's emotional like me. But also believe, and I believe firmly, the way to act out love on this planet is for you to do your Enneagram work. When you get your number that is not, that's when the journey begins. That tells you Okay, so here's who here, here's who I am, this is why I do this. And if I don't do anything about it, I'm gonna continue in being me over and over again, I'm gonna relive this pattern until I pass. So the best thing I can do for myself on the planet is to say I want to be the best version of me that I can be. And I can get up in the morning, I'm okay, I gotta get training gear, I got a lot, I gotta get done. And make the list. And, you know, I'm kind of lazy. Sometimes I don't want to make the list. And sometimes, you're not gonna fool myself and say, Well, I don't want to work on this really important thing. But I'm going to work on these other things. And at least I can say I'm doing something. So acting out love is is becoming the best version of yourself and any Graham can help you do that.
Amy Hageman 1:04:12
Absolutely. That's the thing to me. That's so helpful about the Enneagram that I don't, I haven't found anywhere else is it's like a gives you the prescription. If you had asked me like what area I needed to grow in, I would not have told you I needed to become an eight. Like that's the last thing I would have thought of. But then because the INIA Graham said, hey, look to like you need to try this thing over here. I was like, Oh, that is a better version of me and when I can incorporate that, but I never would have gotten there on my own. You know, so to me that absolutely is the benefit of the tool is that it helps you to understand where it is your call to go for your own growth?
Amy Hageman 1:05:03
I'm really excited. So in this season, we're going to every, I don't know, three to five weeks, I'm going to talk to one of you at a time, we're going to deep dive into one number, and how that manifests in different subtypes in the wings. And I also want to talk a little bit about like, how do those numbers show up in relationship like I, for my eighth example, earlier, I was reading about AIDS, and it said, If you don't hear from them for a while, don't take it personally, it's not that they aren't caring about you. It's just that like, they're busy. And they'll call you when it's on their, on their list of things to get done. And it was so wild to me, because my husband and I both are twos. And we were we have this whole story about this eight and what they thought and felt about us. And I had sort of kind of started to think you know, my pet, we're wrong about that. We're probably wrong about that. But I couldn't identify why. And then when I read that, I was like, we were definitely wrong about that. You know, and so having this understanding of how do the how do those numbers show up in relationship. I know we won't get to get into all the weeds with all the numbers, but I'm hoping that we can start to dive in a little bit and even without people taking IQ nine or talking to an Enneagram coach, by the end of this season, I really feel like we're really going to help some people step into their expansion maybe heal their stories just have in general a better idea of how to how to live out love how they heal their wounds and move towards their their soul's greatest embodiment is what is another way I would say living out love. So mom, dad, Dana, Stephanie Foley, thank you for being here. Everybody listening all the links are in the show notes if you're curious about working with boy and Associates their websites in the show notes and we'll see you next week loves bye. Thank you for listening to the living outlook podcast. If this episode was helpful for you, there are three ways that you can share the love. can send this episode to family friend, neighbor, leave me a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform or comment and ask questions on YouTube. This season is meant to be interactive. Thanks again for your presence. I appreciate you being here. Talk to you next week loves
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