Tough Love Talk: Answering Your Questions on Difficult Conversations

With real-life examples and thoughtful insights, this episode is packed with practical tips for navigating tough conversations and maintaining healthy relationships. We answer our viewers' questions and dive into the complexities of tough love in relationships by addressing common questions and concerns surrounding tough love, delving into the motivations behind behavior, and how to approach these conversations with clarity and compassion. Whether you're facing a difficult conversation or just interested in improving your communication skills, this follow-up episode is not to be missed. So join us for another thought-provoking discussion on tough love, and don't forget to subscribe and share with a friend. Let's continue our journey of learning and growth together. Tune in now! We can't wait to hear your thoughts.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Redefining Constructive Criticism: Instead of seeing constructive criticism as a negative concept, consider it an opportunity to gain or create clarity together.

Emotional Undertones Matter: The emotional undertone of our words can make all the difference in how they are received. Seek compassion and connection when giving tough love.

Setting Boundaries While Showing Compassion: Setting boundaries is crucial in any relationship, but balancing those boundaries with compassion and understanding can be challenging. Communicating our needs while acknowledging the other person's experience is essential.

Acknowledging Our Limitations in Repairing Relationships: It's essential to be honest with ourselves and recognize when we may not have the capacity to fix a relationship or situation. In these moments, it's okay to let the other person feel their emotions and walk away from the conversation feeling betrayed, as long as we still hold space for them.

Open Communication Leads to Stronger Relationships: Even when it's tough, open communication allows for growth and can lead to a deeper level of connection. So don't shy away from tough love conversations; they may strengthen your relationships in the long run.

LINKS:

Work With Amy

Blog Article: Achieving Emotional Mastery Through Tough Love Conversations

Podcast Audio only: Achieving Emotional Mastery Through Tough Love Conversations

TRANSCRIPT

Tough love in friendships with specific examples.

Amy Hageman  00:00

 Hello loves last week on the podcast we talked about tough love and I did sort of the How what when where why of tough love. And if you haven't listened to that episode, don't worry about it You don't need to in order to listen to this episode But I do recommend you go back and save it for the future when you might want to reference it I have no idea how long this episode is going to be but I am pretty sure it's going to be a long one because We are talking about something that is difficult and sensitive, difficult and sensitive enough that people often avoid having these conversations. It's easier to not have them than to go through the discomfort of having them. So in this episode, I am reading submitted situations. I had put out an email and searched on social media and said, Hey if you have a tough love situation. Send it to me and I want to help you with it. So I chose three of them that I felt kind of covered the general mass of responses that I got. And I want to just make a quick note here about tough love and what I noticed from the responses that I got. All of the responses that I got were about friendship. And I thought that was interesting. I think with work and marriage. We have vows and we have contracts. And so we are motivated to have these difficult conversations more often.

Whereas with friendship, people are just removable. You can just go make another friend. And so you don't quite have the same motivation to have the uncomfortable conversation. And broader as a culture, I think that we haven't built that in the expectation of friendships. At least, I hope that we can continue to build it more. That it would be normalized and expected that within your friendships, you would have conversations that are tough. For the sake of the other person, for your sake, for the sake of the relationship, that would be a thing. The other thing I want to point out here is most of us have heard, whether through a Ted talk or social media or something, how important friendships are friendships, like your social circle is important to your physical health, your longevity, and your emotional health. So it's not lost on me that this aspect of our life, these friendships are like a really important aspect of our life. And yet. It's easy to dismiss one another rather than have these conversations. So that's my little sales pitch to you that these are really important relationships and I'm so glad that you all sent in your examples because clearly you want to quote tough it out. Y to have these conversations and I hope, I hope that anything I can share with you today is going to be helpful. So before I get into. The specific examples, I want to share a few general best practices. In addition to what I already shared last episode, best practice number 1, be specific and use examples.

So, one of the examples. That I'm going to use, later on, the person who uses the term boss around. So could boss around be like, you corrected something that I said or did? You're constantly telling me what to do. Like, make sure that those colloquialisms where it's like, you always got to be in control or you're always bossing me around. Whatever the phrase is that we tend to jump to as a culture, make sure that you're as specific as possible and that you have examples, not because you want to have an example to be defensive, but because they want clarity. If you go to someone and be like, you're always bossing me around and they say, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Effective communication and feedback.

04:46

Then you want to be prepared with an example so that they can have that clarity. Okay. The next best practice, be as clear as possible. So both in terms of having examples, but also in terms of practice ahead of time, make sure that you are aware of how much of a situation is your wound versus their behavior. What I mean by that is, let's say I got given feedback once that somebody really didn't like, I use ma'am and sir quite a lot. I, I call people ma'am and I call people sir. And, um, I got feedback from a woman who really did not like it and it wasn't a gender thing. It was just, she did not like being called ma'am. She thought it was disrespectful and she did a good job in giving me the feedback, This is bothersome to me. Other people might be okay with being called ma'am, but for me, I don't like this. So having that clarity is really, really helpful for you to know, okay, this is just my thing. I just don't like the ma'am thing. It's helpful when you're giving feedback, this is important for me. Or just like in general, you boss people around, like, what's the, what's the difference.

Okay, the best practice, plan the time and place well. There are more details about that in the previous episode, but leave time and space and possibility for healing and processing. Part of planning the space well is making sure there's an escape route. And I, listen, I just want to leave room for humans to be humans. And you could do everything right in the world of communication and emotional intelligence. You could do everything right and a human is still going to be a human and they could still be triggered and be explosive or feel the need to run away and not be present for the conversation. And, you know, whatever that is, whether you're online in Zoom, if you're on the phone, if you're in person, just consider. If somebody needs to press the escape button, what will that look like? Okay. Next best practice, leave room for curiosity and compassion. You just never know what you're going to learn in these conversations.

You could learn something very unexpected about that person's behavior that could totally derail the conversation. It could just in an instant shift it from, I'm giving you this feedback that you need to know to, oh, my gosh, we need to talk about your childhood trauma or like, I didn't know English was your second language. Like, there are so many things that could come up. So, as you're preparing, I want you to be in a state of mind of curiosity and compassion. Because that's like, that's likely to be a thing that you need anyway. And it's gonna. It's going to prepare you for this conversation to go better. I think sometimes we as humans with egos, you know, we tend to think if this person knew this feedback that I have for them, then their life would be better.

And to a large extent, there's probably some truth in that, but often it's not that simple. And often we take for granted what we don't know. So that's why I say start with curiosity and compassion. Best practice number two, share and ask. And, this is going to play out in an example I talk about later, but share your experience, ask if they want the feedback, share and ask.

Tough love in a long-term friendship.

08:51

It's what we're going to call a method, share and ask, share your experience, and ask if they want the feedback. Okay. Best practice slash general reminder. This is the last one before we dive into examples. Criticism versus clarity. I want you to know that the feedback that you have to give can go either way. The feedback is not what determines if it's criticism or clarity. What determines that is your motivation. So focus on what you want them to do rather than what they're currently doing as much as possible. Clarity assumes that the person would have done better if they had known better. Criticism assumes they either don't know or don't care. Or that they're like deficient in some skill. So the feedback could be the same. The feedback could be, I need you to listen when I talk. You know, that could be the same. But clarity is assumed. Oh, you just don't know that, like, where we keep the spatulas is in this drawer. You probably thought we kept them in the pot near the stove, but actually, we keep them in the drawer.

Like, clarity is just, oh, you just didn't know. And, like, it's sensitive, so nobody wanted to tell you. The reason I've been putting off telling you this whole time is probably the same reason why you don't already know. Everybody else has chosen not to tell you because nobody else likes to have these conversations either. Okay. So clarity assumes they don't know that they would do better if they knew better. Criticism assumes they don't know because they're dumb, like, like there's a deficiency in some way, or they don't care. Make sure that when you're preparing to have these conversations you're coming from a place of, I'm here to give clarity and I promise you the feedback is the same feedback's the same, but if you are clear with yourself in your own body, I'm criticizing this person shame on this person judgment on this person, like, if those are the feelings.

Then yeah, that's going to be a very different conversation and not one that I recommend having. That's not tough love, that's just criticism. Tough love is clarity. Clarity. And it doesn't mean that if people know better they will do better, because sometimes they won't. There's free will, there's capacity, there's, you know, there's just choice and priorities. So sometimes they won't. But from where you sit when you have the conversation, it's you're coming from a place of clarity. Okay, so those are all of my reminders and best practices. Be specific, use examples, and be as clear as possible in your own mind, like what's yours, what's theirs, is this feedback for you specifically, in general, is this an issue, like have examples ahead of time, not to be defensive, but to be prepared for clarity. And the time, the time and place well, is there an escape route for you both? Leave room for curiosity and compassion, come from a place of curiosity and compassion. The share and ask method, share your experience, and ask if they want the feedback. Criticism versus clarity,, those are my general frameworks for tough love.

Okay, we're going to start with a really difficult example. I mean, all of these examples are difficult because they're all tough love, right? But we're going to start with a loaded one. I have changed all the names, by the way, most people didn't even send me names for people that sent me names. I changed the names and just so you know, Christine has a longtime friend, over 30 years of friendship, the friend's name is Jennifer. Jennifer is currently going through a hard time with her husband and Christine wants to be supportive over their years of friendship. Christine notices that Jennifer is frequently late which led to a recent conflict. And Christine was disappointed in Jennifer's response to the conflict. Christine wants the, wants relationships that have apologies and that apologies can be said, that they can be received. And the conflict didn't go that way. So now Christine wants to distance herself from Jennifer, which is what the email said to me, and wants to know what's the best way to do that. So before I give any guidance, I just want to pause and acknowledge how hard this is. You're talking about a friendship that's decades in the making and you're talking about having a change to the friendship in a time where I know Christine has a lot of life transitions going on, major life transitions, and I also know because she shared with us that Jennifer's going through a hard time with her husband and she needs support.

So I just want to acknowledge this is a loaded situation. You've got the complexities of friendship and how much you've grown together and haven't grown together and you have the complexities of life that you have so much going on. So I just want to honor there's a lot here that I'm not going to have time to address and that this is sensitive. So I want to talk about feedback versus separation and like how much do we say? For tough love to be effective, it has to be digestible. And so if when you say you want to separate from Jennifer, it's like, if what that means is we're no longer going to be friends. Or our relationship as we knew it was over in that case.

Setting boundaries in a friendship.

15:21

I don't recommend giving feedback. About the way the conflict went, um. When we do that when we do the, like, listen, our friendship's over, and here's why, like, this is all the ways in which you've disappointed me. Okay. Bye. Peace out. It's just adding trauma to a situation that's already traumatic. So if the intention is to separate the friendship, then I would not start the conversation thinking that you're going to give feedback. I think either you give feedback and you try to save the relationship or you have a separation conversation. Because I'm not clear or Christine on what separation means, we're gonna have, we're gonna have some variations of that. But no matter how that's gonna go, your personal work comes first. So you need to make sure that you fully release any resentment that you have. 30 years of her being late. Of, you know, yes, she's made progress in, you know, being less judgmental or less negative or what she's made progress in all these other areas.

And yet she can't just figure out apologies or whatever it is. We just want to make sure that you fully release any resentment. Any anger, any blame, and that you come to this conversation feeling complete. And what that means is, let's say you're choosing to separate, or you're choosing to change the rules of engagement, and she could rebel against that, then you come feeling completely at peace no matter what happens. Like, I love this person, I care about this person, and it just doesn't make sense anymore. Like we want to be in that place fully for lots of reasons, for our own well-being and for theirs. And because that is the place that's loving when it's not all mixed up with anger and pain and resentment and blame.

And I'm not suggesting, Christine, that you have all those things, but for the purpose of the podcast, I want to share with everybody that we have to come up with a clean emotional slate that you've released ahead of time. This person from your life, you released all that connection and then you come to it completely with love and like, yeah, I love you. And that just doesn't mean that we need to be together, you know. And preparing for a conversation. There's no way to have a separation conversation or a, let's change the rules of engagement. Let's change our expectations. without the other person experiencing pain. So I want to be clear that remember that emotional pain is not inherently a bad thing. This is going to be a painful conversation for Jennifer and likely for Christine. But if we try to have our boundaries but also prevent the other person from feeling pain, that's what leads to really messy, unclear, unhelpful conversation and often leads to a lack of clear boundaries. So we just have to accept the fact that this is going to be a painful conversation. I'm going to have to hold a boundary and that person is definitely going to have some uncomfortable feelings about it. So prepare yourself. Okay. So I'm going to talk about this as if you want to have a conversation that's like changing expectations. And then if you want to have a conversation that's full-blown, we need to separate and end the relationship.

Okay. So for changing conversations, You could say something like, I need to explore how our relationship might be different. I feel that we both want to be here for the other. And we both have a lot going on and it's simply adding more stress to our relationship as it is. I need to pull away while I get through this transition and let's reassess in some months.

Repairing relationships after conflict 

20:02

I highly recommend a reassess, a pause reassess, because often we just need some time to get the clarity and to see other things and engage in other relationships to be able to say, Oh yeah, like this is how apologies normally go for me. So I need to pull away. Let's reassess in six months. Okay. Jennifer's likely to come back and be like, what the heck? What's going on? And you can say, well. Do you really want this feedback? Like, do you really want to know? Because if you don't, that's fine. Maybe this is all my stuff. Like, maybe I'm just tired from moving, and like, whatever. Because that could be the case. Maybe you really are just tired from moving, and maybe, maybe you won't feel so strongly about it in six months. It's possible. So, let's say she wants some feedback. You say, In our last conflict, I tried my best to make sure that you felt heard and understood. In return, I felt that you were quick to doubt or misunderstand my apology and my pain.

You were quick to, you didn't extend the same benefit of the doubt, let's say. And it's hard for me to have conflict with you and not feel That we have properly repaired and so I, I don't feel. Like, we're in a healthy relationship right now, because we did not properly repair. So, because that's really what apologies are about. They're about the repair. And I think that's a way of rephrasing it. So, that's in the changing expectation kind of paradigm, like, let's separate or let's just. Do a big fancy trip together, like, let's cool it a little bit. Let's get through the stressful times and then reassess. Um, if you think. That there's any possibility that she would come back and say, well, I am really sorry. I did that. I've been really overwhelmed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then you just have to be really clear with ahead of time. If she comes back and says, I'm sorry, am I ready to be in a relationship with her? And if not. Then I truly do just want a separation. So, I think role-playing this in your mind ahead of time is going to be helpful.

So, let's go down the right of a full-blown separation. And obviously, this is going to look different for a lot of people. Um, but you could say something to the effect of, Jennifer, we need to have a difficult conversation. I have been struggling with our relationship and for many reasons, I need to pull away. And I would go ahead and say all this stuff that she's not going to remember because she's going to be too triggered. You can say, we could still be Facebook friends. You can call, I might answer, I might not. You could say, I'm just, I'm not going to be prioritizing our in-person physical time together. Whatever that means. Figure out what separation or distance means for you in terms of a clear boundary. Okay, Jennifer is likely to freak out. What do you mean you need to pull away? Blah, blah, blah. Um, if it's abusive, you leave. If anything gets said abusive, you leave or you do a one strike and you're out, that's up to you.

If it's not abusive, you hold space. It's like, let's say I'm so shocked and I'm, what do you mean? And I'm so hurt. And how could you, like, if that's the type of language, then you say, I can see that what you need is this right now. Consistency, nurturing, what, you know, reflect back to her. I can see that you need this.

Controlling behavior in a friendship 

24:14

I'm not in a space to be able to give you that. And so that's why I feel we need some distance. So you just keep holding space for what she needs and reflect. I don't feel I can give you that. And if Jennifer or whomever in their situation like this has to storm off. They got to slam the phone, storm off, whatever. Let them, don't chase them down. Let them have their explosion and let them go. The goal is not for you to make them feel better about the tough love.

Holding space and hold firm to your truth

24:46

The goal is to hold space and hold firm to your truth. Okay. So that's my response to the fake names of Christine and Jennifer and the fake situation. Um, the person who I have named Christine, if you want more, um, specific. If you want to give me more details, let's talk offline. I would love to help you.

Okay, here's our next example. I got a few examples that were like this. Um, yeah, the next, the next two examples, I got several examples that were similar. So, how do I tell a friend that her actions are controlling? She's used to being the manager of over 50, mostly male employees, and I know she's had to be bossy to excel in that environment, but I am not her employee.

I really value this friend, but find myself distancing from her because of this. She's a loving, generous, kind, and fun person to be around. Otherwise, please help. This is, I, this I feel like is all of life. This example of, We love these people. They're fun, they're kind, they're generous, they're affirming, they're, like, whatever these people are to us, there are so many great things, but then there's this, like, elephant in the room that's so painful to us, too many people perhaps, and how do we do the elephant in the room, you know?

Share and Ask Method towards a Bossy Friend

26:24

It's, I feel like this is such a great example for so many of us, so share and ask. Share your experience, and ask if they want the feedback. So, friend, I'm uncomfortable and I need to tell you about it. I have noticed myself pulling away from you lately. I'm wondering if you would be open to having a vulnerable conversation with me about our relationship.

It might, we might have some, some feelings get hurt, and I'm willing to, I'm willing to work through it and repair the feelings, but it's, it's going to be vulnerable. Like, how does that sound to you? And if it's a no, if it's like, listen, I don't do touchy-feely, or I haven't noticed you pulling away from me.

Addressing the elephant in the room

27:02 

Like, if, if in any way, it's a no, well, then that's not complicated. You wish each other well, and you continue to distance yourself as if nothing ever happened. And it is what it is. It's not likely to be a no, but I wanted to just throw that out there. So, if the friend in any way is like, oh, my gosh, yeah, I, I want to know what's going on.

We can work through it. What's happening? So, this p optional and depends on you, depending on the friend, but I wrote this as an option. Okay, before we start, I want to be clear and say, we would not be having this conversation if I didn't adore you and I didn't want our friendship to continue.

I want to share with you something that is hard to hear because I would hope that somebody else will give me this feedback. I think that part actually is important to say, like, I am sharing this with you because I think you probably want to hear it. Because if I were you, I would want to hear it. You could kind of compare this to like when there's food stuck in your teeth.

Revealing the Issue

28:25

It's uncomfortable for the person telling you, Hey friend, you got food in your teeth. Like nobody wants to have that conversation, but you're also really glad somebody told you. It is just a more sensitive version of that conversation. And then you get to the truth. I feel as though you boss me around in a way that I do not experience in my other relationships.

And my assumption is that you probably don't recognize that you're doing it. Or if you do have an inkling that you're doing it, you probably don't know how problematic it is for me to be on the receiving end. That's all it is. I experienced you bossing me around. I don't experience that in my other relationships. My belief is that you don't know that you're doing it. And if you do know, you probably don't know how often or how much of a problem it is for me. And let them have their initial experience.

Jumping to overly apologetic yet avoiding full clarity

29:15 

Sometimes probably not with a person who tends to be overly bossy, but. A lot of times people can jump to make themselves feel better and so they'll jump to this apology before they really understand enough details. I'm so sorry. I would never. Oh, my gosh. I just feel so. Awful that that's how you felt like it can be overly apologetic. Almost in a way that prevents further clarity from happening. So, I like to set expectations of, like. Let's figure out how we're going to move forward, whether it's let's touch base in 3 to 6 months, figure out if things are better, or whether it's, let's come up with a code word or a nudge or a wink. So that I can help you develop your awareness.

Like if you're truly bought into adjusting your behavior if you're bought into the idea that your behavior is problematic for you, I'm, I'm happy to be in the uncomfortable position of having to be the one saying, you got food in your teeth, you're doing it again, you know, but let's figure out how we want that to go.

So that's, that's how you get it started. You just say I'm experiencing this with you. I don't experience it in my other relationships. I'm assuming you don't know to some extent. Either you don't know how much or how often or how much it bothers me. And then you let them have their initial response, whether it's, I don't think I do it that much, you know, whether it's defensiveness or whether it's over apologizing, let them have their response and then say, what would make me feel?

Allowing the other person to vote on how to proceed 

30:56 

So supported or what, what I would love for our relationship is if we had this conversation again and gave that person the vote. Like, do you want to just go back to normal touch base in six months or would you like me to help? Do you want me to tell you more often, you know, and then don't overcommit yourself?

If they say every time I do it, please tell me I'm, I'm not going to tell me in hindsight, it's not helpful. Tell me in the moment, like whatever they say. Don't set expectations for something that you cannot live up to. Just allow for it to be messy. Say, yeah, I will try. I will try to do that for you. Just like you will try not to boss me around. Neither one of us is going to get this right all of the time. So let's just agree that it's going to be messy for a while. We're both here for the right reasons and it's just going to be a bit messy. And we might have some hurt feelings, but we will repair them.

Okay. So that's my, that's my feedback for the spinach in your teeth situations of you got this thing going on and I'm pretty sure you don't know about it. Okay. So last example of the day, how do I tell a new colleague who is fast becoming a friend that I care a lot about that her work can be better and needs to be improved?

How to address work insecurity through constructive criticism 

32:15 

I feel I have a lot to offer her in the way of mentorship, but she's very sensitive about her abilities. Though very kind about almost anything else, she gets defensive about her work. I see that she has great potential and really could break out as a standout in her job. But she must first be open to constructive criticism. I want to approach this the right way. This person, by the way, is very spiritual and has faced tremendous obstacles in her life. And I feel that God is calling her to take some new steps. Okay, so I just want to acknowledge your last sentence about the person being spiritual and scaling obstacles. That is telling me how much you want me to appreciate how great this person is.

In your writing that sentence, like you are telling me. Don't see this person as just their work mistakes. I want you to appreciate how wonderful they are, that they're spiritual, that they're resilient, and that God is talking to them. So I can see that you think very highly of this person and that you want me and anybody listening to this podcast to think highly of this person also. I just want to acknowledge that.

If this is not an accountability conversation, If this is not at you need to hit these work demands or else you're going to be put on some sort of probation or whatever. And if there's time, I would not even seek to have a criticism slash clarity conversation. I would just seek to have a curious conversation. 1st. You said that she, where is this line in your sentence? She gets. Although very kind about almost anything else, she gets defensive about her work. So the first curiosity is, why is that? Was she blamed for someone else's bad work in the past? Did she find out that she got paid less than others? And so now she feels the need to prove herself. Like what's the chip on her shoulder about work? What is she self-protecting from? Essentially she doesn't feel psychologically safe when it comes to work. And so why is that?

Not a boss accountability conversation 

34:51 

That is a lot to cover, if you're truly friends, if this is not a boss accountability conversation, I would start there and see if you can actually heal the root of the problem, which is like the psychological safety at work. In that conversation, if and when possible ask. Would, would, do you want the feedback?

Like if I had some clarity for you around how I think this could be better, like, do you want that? And it's not very often, but sometimes people will say, no, like there are people that are happy with their work and they don't want the feedback. And that is their right. Unless you're their boss and it's your job to make sure they have the feedback, you know, that's their right. So. Not everybody does that. Usually, people say, Oh yeah, of course, I want to. And they say that whether they mean it or not. Um, but just giving them the option is really important and it could be like, Hey, would you ever want to have that conversation? And if so, you tell me when and how, like, do you want me to take you out for coffee?

Like, do you want to go for a walk? Like, give them power and agency in that conversation. There are a lot of times anytime that we are having a Criticism or clarity conversation, we feel sort of victimized by it. Um, and so setting the expectation up ahead of time. And again, I went into some of this in the last episode, but I just want to say that.

Providing clarity and discussing things she needs to do

36:26

Okay, so let's say that there's no time to do all that curiosity work around the chip on the shoulder. Like, let's, that's not an option. Um, you didn't give me a name, so I'm going to call this person Kelly. Kelly. I'd like to have a sensitive conversation with you about your work and I've noticed in the past that you have strong feelings regarding work. So, I want to be clear, this is not trouble. This is not even criticism. This is for clarity. Remember what we talked about criticism versus clarity feedback is the same. It's, but it's where you're coming from. Okay. So. You tell her I need to give you feedback. I've observed in the past you have strong feelings, and so I just want to be clear with you.

Like, I'm, I'm not criticizing. You are not in trouble. I just want to give you some clarity. And then you say what you want her to do. So, if she's missed deadlines, or if she has missed typos, you know, whatever, don't address missing deadlines and not correcting typos. Address the things you want her to do. So I need you to add more details to the spreadsheet when you're communicating with. So and so make sure that you see Alex, you know, and then. For each of the behaviors or tasks that you want to see happen. Then you explain why so we see Alex, because he works in the lab and the lab sends our supplies and it just saves a step.

From so and so having to see Alex, or whatever. So, with clarity, it's sort of coming from this assumption that perhaps there is. Organizational knowledge, and I'm saying that because of in the workplace, organizational knowledge that she doesn't know, doesn't have, perhaps she didn't have the same training that you had or whatever.

Having the why and providing positive assumptions

38:29

And so, it's like, for each of the things that you want to see happen, having the why and coming from a place of curiosity of like, I wonder if they even know, like, do they even know that Alex in the lab is the person that sends our supplies? They probably don't know, otherwise, they probably would have cc'd him.

You know, it's coming from that positive assumption place. Okay, so let's assume that you've given her the feedback and Kelly's defensive because we know Kelly to be defensive about her work. You say I hear you. I, you're really proud of the work that you do here and I am in no way suggesting that you should not be proud of your work.

Not at all. I'm suggesting that if you also did these things, you would see better outcomes. And because I've come to know you as a friend, because I know how much you value your work, it's precisely for those reasons that I decided I would take the risk of giving you this feedback. I take the risk of you having hurt feelings and me feeling uncomfortable and nervous in order to honor how much you care about your work. Thank you. I decided to take the risk and share I know these are hard conversations to have and I knew you might get defensive about it and I don't blame you for being defensive. It's really easy to feel criticized, but I also know how much you care about your work. And so at the end of the day, I felt like it was a safe bet that you'd want to know how to be more successful.

Curiosity first about the defensiveness 

40:08

So, those, that's my advice for. Kelly, whoever your colleague is, I don't know their name. So I'm calling them Kelly. Um, curiosity first about the defensiveness. Like if it was possible to have this relationship-building exercise of being curious about why work is so important, you could phrase it that way. You care a lot about your work and you have a lot of strong ideas about your work. And I'm really curious about that.

You know, if you're able to build that 1st, by the time you get to a place of offering clarity piece of cake, like, it becomes so much easier. It's so much more casual. It's like, hey, Kelly, I know you really care about deadlines and I just don't think you knew, like, we give you the deadline of March 2nd. But what that really meant was April 30th. Because if you hit a deadline on a Monday, so and so doesn't have time, and like, you probably don't understand the thing about supply chain, and so we need to have it on a Friday instead. Like, it really means the Friday before. I don't know why we don't communicate it that way.

Like, there's stuff like that that happens all the time, that because we shy away from having these conversations, they tend to feel so big. It feels so big when somebody's. Bossing us around all the time. It's such a big deal, right? Like, oh, why don't they just stop bossing us around? Why don't they know blah blah blah, but then it's like as soon as we have the conversation and we're like, hey You probably didn't know? Is it okay if I tell you? Let's talk about it. And then before you know it, it becomes this thing. Hey Susie, you're bossing me around again. You did it again. Oops. Or like, yeah, you boss me around this time. It didn't bother me so much because it was only about, you know, how much butter I put on the popcorn that we shared.

And I don't that's not something I care about. But when you boss me around about, like, the way I set the table, that's something I really care about whatever it is. It's like. When we build up the psychological safety 1st, so in your email to me with the colleague, the colleague example, um. I'm not clear about your role. I know it says you could be a mentor for this person, but I don't know what that means in structure or just because perhaps you have more experience at the organization or at your job role, et cetera. So, you know, there might be some complexities here regarding who does what who gets paid what, and how you all work together.

Building psychological safety together 

42:50

But in general, it's like. Building this psychological safety and this curiosity around why Kelly is the way that she is at work will help you to make more casual. The actual conversations of. Yeah, when we really want to call people, ma'am or, sir, when we're talking to them, like, whatever the feedback is. It makes it way less tricky. So, if possible. build-up to it. And if not possible, just call it out. It's going to be a sensitive conversation and I know how much you care about it, which is why we should have the conversation because you care. I want to continue our friendship. This is a no way criticism or a judgment.

This is me wanting to help you. I think if you knew X, Y, Z, you would do ABC. And so I want to tell you X, Y, Z, it's coming from that place. And I think, you know, in your email, you said, But she must first be open to constructive criticism. I think that is that's organizational development lingo and leadership lingo.

Gaining clarity or creating clarity together 

44:03

And that's the world that I come from. My master's degree is in organizational development. So I'm very familiar and comfortable with the phrase. Constructive criticism is the reason I want to redefine it too, like gaining clarity or creating clarity. Is because the emotional undertone is different. Constructive criticism is like this, and I'm not criticizing you, by the way, this is like, these are just the terms we use constructive criticism is coming from this undertone of I know better than you. And if you knew what I know, then you would do better. Um, and like, clarity also has this assumption of, I know something you don't know, but it also has this assumption of there might be more here than I can recognize, and let's get clarity.

So the goal is not, I'm going to give you criticism. The goal is we're going to get clarity together. And it could be that there was this whole motivation for the way she's doing things that we don't understand. Like, let's say she's turning things on March 2nd on a Monday instead of the Friday before and you're thinking that's a bad decision because the supply chain needs the weekend to get their act together, whatever it is. And then we could find out later, well, her last boss always wanted things on Mondays. Didn't want emails on the weekend, didn't want emails on Fridays, like just wanted on Monday. So she comes from this place of bosses like things on Mondays. Like, we have no idea what's motivating this person's behavior, but there could actually be legitimate reasons why they do what they do.

So if we come in and just criticize the behavior itself without seeking clarity around the behavior, then it's a missed opportunity. So we have gone 45 minutes and I have not even really mentioned the words tough love in this situation but tough love is tough not only because The person hearing it has to hear something that's difficult, but because it's difficult for us to give it is difficult for us to give even the easy things even the like Yeah, a toddler of mine, you can't have three bowls of ice cream for dessert.

Even that is not fun and easy to give because of course toddlers gonna have a meltdown. Of course, I'd rather them just be happy. Of course, I don't want to tax my own nervous system with their energetic meltdown. Of course, I want them to just be happy and go play outside. So tough love is tough. For everybody in the room, but when we come at it from this, the point of view of wanting clarity and wanting compassion and connection and repair.

Creating boundaries yet remaining compassionate 

46:52

That's so helpful and in the case of our earlier example. There might be a separation here, like, this might be either a major shift or separation between quote, Christine and Jennifer, then. We can be curious and compassionate and seek clarity about that too. It might be more of an inward thing. It might look a little different, but it's possible to have a boundary and to have a writing of rules while still having compassion and curiosity and holding space for that person's experience going, yeah, I, I hear that this is hard. I, I see that you feel really betrayed. And I don't have it in me to repair that for you.

You can never fix it for them 

47:37

So if you have to walk away from this conversation feeling betrayed, I have to let you do that because I don't have the capacity to fix that. And then the subtext is knowing you don't have the capacity to fix it when you break it with me. Like that's the subtext, but you don't need to say that because we're just holding space for them at that moment.

Okay loves, this was a really big episode. I hope that there was lots of helpful stuff in there for you. Obviously, you have to make these conversations sound like you and not like me, but I think these are some good starting points and I appreciate you all sending in your examples. These are things that we all deal with or need to deal with.

Perhaps we don't deal with them. We avoid them and we need to deal with them. So I appreciate you. Trusting me with your life, and your situations, and I so hope that this was helpful. If it was helpful, let me know what was most helpful for you. Share this with a friend. Make sure you've subscribed to the podcast.

I'm sending you all so much love, resilience, fortitude, and clarity. Okay, let's go do it. Bye loves!