Loving Enneagram Fours

• Fours prioritize authenticity, creativity, depth of emotion and unique self-expression.

• They can struggle with envy, looking for what's missing, and push-pull dynamics in relationships.

• Fours benefit from space-holding, validation of their contributions, and reminders of their strengths.

• Accessing the Five (thinking) and Three (action) wings can help Fours channel their emotions productively.

• Ones can provide a calming release for Fours through discipline, while Twos can encourage other-focus.

• Relationships with Fours require nurturing their emotions but also not taking reactions personally.

 

 

Transcript

Stephanie Foy  0:00 

Two, Three and Four are in the feeling triad what we call the feeling triad. Twos feel the emotions of others, to a vast extent, like they're so sensitive to the emotions of others. Fours, on the other hand, are just as sensitive but to themselves and they live and swim in their own emotions and can do so for a long time.

 

Amy Hageman  0:30 

This season on the living out love podcast, we are focusing on you, who you are, what motivates you, what you're here to contribute, and how you can expand will be utilizing my leadership skills and spiritual connection. diving deep into the Enneagram and astrology. Listen every week to become intimately aware of yourself. Only then heal and grow. Let's get to work loves

 

Introduction to the Enneagram Four

Hello love's Welcome back to our Enneagram series on the podcast. Today we're talking about fours. And I have to say the fours that I know I'm I love and I admire but I don't know that many fours so my first question to you guys is like are fours rarer? Or is that just me? Yes or no? I was doing some research and they're their most rare Enneagram I don't know what reason that is. They seem to be pleased the numbers. Fascinating. Fascinating. Well, Dad, why don't you kick us off who? Who is a four.

 

Dana Foy  1:37 

Who Okay. Famous Enneagram type? JK Rowling, Harry Potter fan. Johnny Depp, Pirates of the Caribbean. And then John Steinbeck great writer from the 50s Bob Dylan. Our audience is young enough or old enough to know who Bob Dylan is? The Great singer songwriter, Leonard Cohen, the Hallelujah Hallelujah. Atlantis Morissette. He may be young enough that our crowd knows who I am. And then the artists known as Prince is for. Okay, more probably recognizable Benedict Cumberbatch, Sherlock Holmes and the decarb of Helena Helena Bonham Carter.

 

Amy Hageman  2:26 

Oh, wow. So quite the theme here.

 

Dana Foy  2:29 

Yeah, and one more Obi Wan Kenobi himself. You and McGregor will be working Obi was a for according to Star Wars.

 

Amy Hageman  2:39 

Wow. Well, so I'd say the theme of artists and actors are known for being emotional.

 

Dana Foy 2:49 

So emotionally sensitive, very creative. I mean, it's okay. Right. JK Rowling said the Hardy. Harry Potter book came to her in a kind of flash. Just intense creative. Johnny Depp has a big range of characters that he can play. Same thing with Benedict Cumberbatch. These are very very talented people.

 

Amy Hageman  3:09 

I think it's Cumberbatch

 

Dana Foy  3:11 

Cumberbatch. Okay. Okay.

 

Amy Hageman  3:20 

So talented, creative sensitive, is that where we're headed with a four?

 

Core Traits and Motivations of Fours

Dana Foy  3:27 

Well, intense, intense, okay, and be self-absorbed. Yeah, also not aware that other peoples don't experience the same emotions today. Ah, you know, sometimes fours and run a small circle of friends because their emotional display, it's just too much. Or some of the other numbers who don't deal with their emotions, a lot. Like, oh, man, this is too much I can't.

 

So things like that. They are known for wanting to be unique and authentic. So if you see a person out there who's dressed to a higher standard little differently, someone else acting a little bit different. That is part of the way they express their authenticity. So I really enjoy fours. I have a handful of them and they're all very different. The subtypes, the difference between the subtypes is, I think more different than other members that, in my opinion, definitely probably would say something.

 

Amy Hageman  4:33 

That's an interesting insight, and therefore is that I do know, I like their style. It's like it's not my style, but they have their own style that's unique to them. And it's, it's not like accidental, no.

 

Stephanie Foy  4:48

Okay, so here's a four you might know. Do you remember Mary Harlan was a Four, and she told me once that she never shopped in departments door. Because they’re too pedestrian. Pedestrian. Yeah, pedestrian like that would be, you know, like any common person could shop in a department store, you had to shop in unique specialty boutique places that give that you would not, you know, buy regular Jones New York suit, you had to buy something different.

 

Amy Hageman  5:28 

If I didn't know Mary Harlan, I would have said that's pretty snooty. Right? But I didn't experience her as snooty.

 

Stephanie Foy  5:35 

No, it was just how she expressed herself. It was just the thing, you know. And so it doesn't matter that, you know, it can be anything, but they're going to seek out unique places, they're going to speak at unique expressions, they're going to, you know, even if they're putting on a pair of Levi's, they're going to put on a pair of Levi's with a different shirt, or their jewelry is going to be you know, like, they're going to really put themselves together in a way that expresses their uniqueness.

 

Amy Hageman  6:15 

Yeah. Dad, what were you gonna say, you were gonna jump in?

 

Dana Foy  6:17 

Well, the country of France is if you're you'd only Enneagram as being a country of four. They won't holiday anywhere this pedestrian not going to come to America? Or, you know,

 

Stephanie Foy  6:28 

you don't see for example, going to Disney World. Yes.

 

Amy Hageman  6:32 

Got it. Oh, that's fantastic.

 

Stephanie Foy  6:38 

In fact, they prefer if they're going to holiday outside of France, to go to an island that is either still a colony in France or was once owned by French. Because that was that was, you know, the experience that you need.

 

Amy Hageman  6:53 

Okay, they like to stay within the unique realm. So, it's not about like, French pride is asked about like that culture and snobby or I'm better than you. It's just they just don't enjoy the pedestrian they enjoy experiencing something that is authentic and unique.

 

Hmm.  Well, that would explain why everybody has their own winery instead of having mass corporate. You know, when I went to France in college, it was like, so many people's, they make their own wine. And it's their land, and it's their, you know, versus we have the mass, and we can all buy the same things, and we bond over the same things. culturally speaking. Oh, that's fascinating. And it's occurring to me that if anybody's listening to this podcast for the first time, I haven't introduced you all. So, I guess listeners we're interviewing, we're talking with my mom and dad, Dana and Stephanie Foy. They're both certified integrative Enneagram practitioners. And you can learn more about them at the links in the show notes. But we'll keep going. It just occurred to me I hadn't done that. I'm clearly not a one. So back to the fours. What is it? So, they're there? They're sensitive, they're emotional people. And I'm assuming their goal is to be authentic and unique. That's what they're solving for. Right?

 

Fours and Emotions 

Stephanie Foy  8:18 

And so let me say this about the fours. Okay, so think about two, three and four are in the feeling triad, what we call the feeling triad. twos, feel the emotions of others, to a vast extent, like they're so sensitive to the emotions of others. Fours, on the other hand, are just as sensitive but to themselves, and they live and swim in their own emotions and can do so for a long time. So hence, you know, creative types like singer songwriters, and actors, because those emotions come so present for them, unlike most everybody else on the Enneagram I mean, there is no other number in my opinion, that has the emotional range and, and sit in them with comfort. And like the negative emotions, like a seven is gonna reframe it. You know, I heard one time that in the Jewish tradition, there's some of the calls sitting Shiva. So, when somebody passes, you just go to the home and you just sit with the person, you're just there, you're just present. And that four is the best person to sit Shiva because they can just be present to grief with no, it doesn't like then they can just be in the grief and it’s no big deal. And they like you know, it's like all essay, it's like swimming in the deep end of the emotions. They're in it and they don't care. They're just women, you know, they can be there with it.

 

Amy Hageman  9:57 

So I mean, that can be Such a beautiful gift. Yeah, I mean, wallowing is not great. But especially for those of us, you know, from an emotional intelligence perspective, emotions are energy, and they can get trapped in the body. And so if you need to experience grief, but you're not practiced experiencing emotion, having a four around is probably really handy. Exactly as probably annoying if you don't want to experience emotion.

 

Stephanie Foy  10:24 

But the downside and the negative side of four, or, you know, the growth area for Four, you know, if you're the unredeemed for is to learn to get out of their emotions, to learn to move through them, you know, as opposed to the emotions having them. They don't have emotions, the emotions have them. I mean, lots of force that you talk to, it's like, oh, yeah, they just feel like they're taken over. Like, their whole body is taken over by an emotion by feeling and have figuring out how to get out of that. And that's a big deal for fours. So, moving into that thinking quadrant and into action is can be a real challenge for them. Because it's like they're gonna have to, they got to get themselves out of it some way or another. Yeah, well,

 

Amy Hageman  11:16 

I can, I can strongly relate to feeling overtaken. So, if I feel that I can't even imagine what it's like for a four. Right? So, I'm a two and I'm in the feeling triad. And I'm a feeler-doer and thinking is repressed so with Fours, is the thinking the repressed or is it the doing that's repressed?

 

Stephanie Foy  11:38 

Ah, let me think about that. Ah, typically, it's the doing this repressed. So, feeling, thinking and then action is the low end. So different than the twos because y'all feel and do feel and do feel and do and later on, think about it. Or worse, feel and think, feel and think, feel and think, because you think about fours. They also are buddied up right next to fives. And fives are thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, so yeah,

 

Amy Hageman  12:19 

they're also buddied up next to threes, which are doing, doing, doing, doing? Yeah, yeah. So that that actually leads me to a question because one of the fours in my life that I just adore and admire is actually a big doer. Right. And so if a Four is a big action taker, I guess there's no one answer to this, but in my mind, I'm like, okay, is that because she's an unhealthy for and isn't actually allowing for the emotional experience? Or is it because she's learned how to do the emotions and learned how to use them to propel her?

 

Stephanie Foy  12:58 

Like, oh, it's the second but we don't know it.

 

Amy Hageman  13:01 

It could go either. Okay. Okay. Because there's some there's some numbers where when we talk about them, and the people in my life, that that's what they are. I'm like, oh, yeah, I get it. I get it, I get it. But the Fours is the first number we've come across where I know people for sure that that are fours. But I think to Dad's point, perhaps the subtypes have the most variety, because it doesn't quite. It's confusing, a little bit like I'm like,

 

Stephanie Foy  13:30 

I think it's just because we don't know enough Fours. I don't think they're any more complex are different than the rest of the numbers. It's just we have more exposure and experience with the different types and the different subtypes than we do with fours. They're more unique. They're like little rare birds. So you don't get to know them as well. That's the other thing is because they're all internally referenced. And they're going to show you what they want you to see not what necessarily, you know, whatever.

 

Amy Hageman  14:01

So, yeah. So, I have a hard time with that, like people showing  you what they want you to see. And I know we all do that in different ways to different extents. But I think especially with the four because they're curated by nature, right with their appearance and stuff, it feels to me like it's even more curated with them based on my limited exposure.

 

Stephanie Foy  14:33 

Well think about one of the things that we can think about fours is they, they want to go to depth, they want to feel their feelings at depth, they want to be deep. They want to be deep thinkers; they want to be deep feelers. And so, if they have the perception that that's not safe for them, it's not, you know, in an environment then they're going to because again, they're their gifts, their identity, depth and originality. So, they're going to present that as their interface. But their vise is envy and that they think often other people have something they don't have. They always think somebody else has something, and they are dissatisfied with ordinary life. ordinary reality seems always dissatisfying to them. So, they're always seeking for something better, something more unique, something, you know.

 

Amy Hageman  15:42 

Indeed, that's interesting. Yeah.

 

Stephanie Foy  15:46 

It's interesting to me that on the Enneagram, the color is green, or Fours, your green be real vulnerability, where they feel like they're exposed, or uncomfortable, and people looking at him is when they're being ordinary. And their social style, they don't get what they want, they tend to withdraw and go deep within and think, well, things over, feel the emotions try to work through it finally, then their conflicts, when things don't go the way they can be very reactive. It can be very loud and motional, in order to be heard, and let people know that they need to be heard and things aren't necessarily going away they like.

 

Amy Hageman  16:43 

I'm just sitting. So as a Two I'm like, I'm having feelings. But my thoughts are not clear yet. So, I'm saying I have a question about it. But I'm not sure what my question is yet. I think so with the they go into the feelings. What wasn't the conflict? What was when you said before that their social style? Yeah,

 

Fours Social Styles and Conflicts 

Stephanie Foy  17:04 

the social style, if things don't, if they don't get what they want, they have a tendency to withdrawal and get mind and think about it, experience the emotion of it, and be with the emotion of it until they work it. So they work through it. And when they get into a conflict, that can be very act reactive, emotional cloud. And just with an attempt to be seen and heard, this is not right. I think this should be different. I mean, and a lot of people that do this that aren't fours. But this is typically in on their ladder, the range of fours, they hear the low side and the high side of it.

 

I was at a class and two fours were sitting side by side. One was a self-pres Four in the other, I think is an S -O Four. And both of them are the same, but very different. Both of them were uniquely dressed. Both of them were very polished. But one was quiet, and the other was more than the reactive point. So that's a self-pres person, I wasn't quite sure she was bored. Until I found out that she absolutely identified with me. She liked it. She likes being unique and works hard, trying to make sure she's expressing her authentic self. And the other was a little more emotional and is easier for me to identify them as to what I think is a four.

 

Because they know the demonstrable behaviors do exist. And I gotta tell you, I think in a church choir, the nurse is lovely for the stands out in the audience. I look forward. He's always equally dressed, put together very well. I mean, always a notch above everybody around her. And when she's sways with the music is more of a dancing, if it's appropriate, but it's more of a dancing style. Unless you may have even yet expressed maybe even practiced a little bit. It inspires guys like me who are kind of shy and want to be seen but not be saying well look at that looks great. I could do some of that. Um, you know, so they inspire people and we're not even aware of.

 

Amy Hageman  19:28 

Well, I finally formulated a thought from what we said earlier. Okay, so you were talking when with social styles, how they'll withdraw and feel their feelings I was thinking about, sometimes I refer to like, our baby selves. You know, our pure self that hasn't matured yet. And I was thinking about like the baby fours, who the world doesn't go the way they want it to. They withdraw and they feel whatever it is they're feeling whether it's disappointment or rage or you know, whatever it is and how when the emotions have you, you don't get through that. And so that typically ends up being self-defeating. Like, they're probably not ever getting what they want, because they're in the disappointment. And if you're an emotional person that likes to feel emotion, it feels better, to just feel a strong emotion of disappointment than it does to try to feel less intensely through an emotion like curiosity, or, you know, something higher on the emotional scale. So, literally, I could see a four that doesn't know there are four that doesn't realize that their emotions have them stuck, and of never getting what they want.

 

Because physiologically, it honestly kind of feels good to feel upset because at least it's intense. Mm hmm. It it's counterintuitive, but so I bet it takes some work, to really, to want to push through and get what you want, or to push through to get through conflict. When some of those feelings aren't as intense, you know, if everything's just okay, you know, it's almost better to feel bad than it is to just feel okay. Because intensity, it is

 

Stephanie Foy  21:22 

and feeling okay, is ordinary, remember what,

 

Amy Hageman  21:25 

you know, they don't like yes, the tortured artist.

 

Stephanie Foy  21:29 

So that's like, they've either got to be, you know, some of the downside for is they really, they don't mind their suffering. And they like thinking out suffer others, you know, like to you to force in a room and they're like, they go to like, who’s who has it? The worst didn't go that direction. So, pain is a is a is a badge of honor, for Fours, you know, whereas a three or a seven? They'd be like, oh, hey, no, you know, but then that's there in it.

 

Amy Hageman  22:08 

Yes. And so, um, why would you get out of that being unique? To just be ordinary?

 

Dana Foy  22:16 

Yeah, they, when they go off, I'm gonna say go off with this a massive emotional reaction. They don't understand that that's not normal for other people that don't understand how hard it lands on others. And packages make people say, you know, I just, I just don't need this person. I'm around them. It's just too much for me. People make, I think, an unconscious decision just to move on. It just came. I'm not up for that. If you're a three or seven, I'm going on. If you're a nine you go, man, this hurts. I'm gonna avoid this. You know, if you're a one well, that's not how you do this. Mean? Aflac. That's not the right thing to do. And the new the eight, we can control yourself? Oh, yeah, you just do this. So it can it's that that emotional outbursts that I see some people who I think are fours that do that have no idea that there's they have this push pool with people, they want to pull people in, so that they can be unique and have these great friends. But then when they don't get what they want. No, boom, I have a big emotional wreck and I push people away. So there's this push pool of fours that I don't think they understand. I don't know what they think about it. But that's how I see him and how experienced

 

Amy Hageman  23:32 

Well, I'm going to do a plug here. For anybody that knows a four I have a podcast episode called How to hold space. And you're just gonna need to read that. Because to your point that it takes a lot of energy to hold space for people in intense emotion. It's exhausting. You know, and it's a skill here, it can be exhausting, I should say. Yes. So

 

Stephanie Foy  23:54 

your brother, your older brother, Steven, who is a Seven?

 

He’s, come to me over the weekend about a person he knows that he's been close to friends with. And that person has been in grief. We look now back five years. That, you know, and you said to me, Mom, I just don't know how to talk to her. Like, oh, you know? Yeah, it's like, the whole thing is just like, um, I can't you know, like, he's a seven. He's a 32nd Suffering guy, you know, like, different get on with it move on, you know? So, for this person, to literally be in her grief. Now for what looks like to her friends and whatever. Five years is like, okay, I just don't even know how to go there. And I think for this person, every time she gets maybe a little horizon or a little wind Oh, something happens. And she just goes right back in, just jumps right back in the deep end. And now it's like, almost like that grief has become her that she's missing out on it is her I didn't. Yeah. So, anyway, just interesting.

 

Amy Hageman  25:18 

So, I'm, so I'll, I'm gonna make this episode about my brother. But um, you know, when, when Jarrod and I lost our first kid, and he, my older brother had us out there. And I remember being kind of nervous because it was a very emotional time. And I don't know him as being an emotional person in that way. And I was a little bit like, well, how's this? How's this gonna go? And of course, he's a great host. And it was lovely. But my experience Him of him in that was there was holding space. And there was also a little bit of curiosity on his regard of like, what's it like to feel like, this is a thing, you know, you lost your kid is a deep emotion, like, what's it like? So, just to his credit, specifically, but then to everybody's credit is even if it's not in your nature to hold space, you totally can, you know, right, like he held, he held space, and it's not in his nature to feel what we were feeling. But he was present for it. You know, so I think for somebody that's been in grief for five years, of course, it's hard to know what to do. But it you know; it is a skill that can be learned. You know, I think so. Kudos to Steven on that. And then I'm gonna say, just because it's my podcast, and I can, I think it's curious to think about each of the numbers psychically and like, what their spiritual gifts are. And for me, I don't know about for all psychics, but for me, connecting with the unseen is a feeling it's an inner, it's, I connect to the energy and then I sense, or I feel the energy. And so, on the one hand, our emotions are our connection, they're connected to our body and their connection to spirit. On the other hand, if we're too emotional, we can't connect. So, I'd be really curious if you're a four out there, and you're listening, I'd be really curious to learn about their experience of connecting with spirit. And if they're able to do that, or, and if so, how it's literally in in mediumship readings. It goes great until I get if I get too stressed that maybe it's not going well. Or if I get too happy, then I'm like, oh, yeah, like this is going great. Then the connection kind of severs you have to kind of observe your emotions rather than fall into them in order to have that connection. So yeah, if anyone's a four out there and wants to talk to me about psychic stuff, I'd love to have that conversation. Back to our Enneagram discussion, so their vices are envy. They're overcome by emotion. I'm thought I'm thinking of like the tortured artist. Anything else we want to say about? What do they value? What's their, they value authenticity. And anything else we want to say about the floor before we move on to wings, I guess is what I'm saying.

 

Dana Foy  28:22 

Things meaning in depth, beauty and aesthetics. Inspired you happen to find yourself on the Louvre in Paris, France, to more than standing at a painting and just mesmerized meditating. That's likely to be a four because they get it they get the difficulty, the layers of the paint that the artists had to paint the message when they really, really get I mean, I'm walking by and I see people out, but what in the world do they live there, they get it. Get it and they also when you're there for and you're in a concert, there's lots of layers of music, that are stacked upon each other to create this beautiful music. And they get the layer. They get it right away and I can, and they find inspiration from it. So I'd like to put that in there for us make this world but much beautiful, more beautiful than all the rest of

 

Amy Hageman  29:24 

I'm going to find out that Lin Manuel Miranda, if he's a four.

 

Stephanie Foy  29:30 

Other thing I'll just say just, you know, before we move on, because it's like the downsides of four as your dad was saying was that they cannot only if they have an emotional burst, but also just because they're constantly that thinking that something's always missing. So, in relationships, they can be very needy. They can be very life or you are leaving me today are you is this a day you know what it were. So that whole tendency to sort of have that push pull in relationships, like they want to be, they want to pull people closer, but then then they're so worried that they're not, you know, this is not perfect, this is not whatever authentic that then they push people away. So, it's that the Suzanne's to be ill we were in class with her. And there was two people sitting in the front or two fours. And she basically said, How's that relationship? Good luck with that, because like, that's gonna be hard on you guys. But also, you know, a growth area for Fours is learning to appreciate what they have or appreciate what's true in the situation, because they're always looking for what's missing. If they're, you know, if any, if any group has a lack mentality, it's a four, because they always see what's missing.

 

Amy Hageman  31:00 

That's surprising to me. Wow, yeah. I just have so much empathy for fours. I mean, I can relate to the emotional stuff. Not to the authenticity or the, I mean, I want to be authentic, but not with this sense of style. But that looking for what's missing, it makes sense. Like, from a subconscious point of view, if you're trying to be unique, then you're always looking for, like, ways where you can express and, you know, so it makes sense that there's sort of that striving, oh, bless their hearts.

 

Dana Foy  31:36 

Yeah.

 

Stephanie Foy  31:40 

And you will find them in, you know, they're always going to be looking for looking for those things that have meaning that have depth. So, you know, like, an afternoon game of kickball is not really, you know, like, a thing you're gonna find a for interested in, because it's not going to, you know, that's whatever. So, where they can really unique have something that's meaningful. Now, you get force in a meaningful conversation. Oh, they're in, you know, now, a lot of it will be self-referenced, it's gonna be a lot about I mean, how I see the world, and what I think is missing in the world, but they're going to go there, they're going to, and they're going to love that, you know, so.

 

Amy Hageman  32:35 

I mean, we'll get to relationships later. But I'm, I'm just thinking about a friend of mine, that is not a four, but manages a bunch of fours. Yeah. And so, I was thinking about, like, performance reviews? And how, if you just had a quantitative review, you know, of like, oh, you're an eight out of 10? Or, if you just had that, how awful that would be for Four? Oh, yeah, you have to have quality feedback that points to their uniqueness, you know, and probably honors whatever emotional experience they're having at the time. Which if you don't know how to hold space, and you don't know how to empathize would be really hard to do.

 

Stephanie Foy  33:12 

What is it? Do you know what this person is? That's managing the Fours?

 

Amy Hageman  33:16 

They’re a Nine?

 

Stephanie Foy  33:18 

Ah, well, so here's the thing does Fours depending upon what kind of work it is, they're going to bring creativity. So, if it's a creative endeavor, they're probably really fabulous at the work, but man trying to manage a bunch of them that will be challenging, because they're gonna try to out authentic each other. Does that make sense? Like, there's that and then oh, I'm the, you know, I'm the peacock today.

 

Amy Hageman  33:47 

So, my friend, that's the nine, once everything wants, everybody wants it to be peaceful. Sure, once peace and everybody to be happy, well, a four is not going to be happy. You know, they're going to have an intense emotion. And so that, like, instinct of a nine is to try to fix it when you can't, you know, so and they don't really want it fixed. That's they don't, right. So, for her, it's like, she has to reset herself around that. But it's a bit even in the holding space aspects for or one manager to have a lot of Fours. That's a lot of space holding to do.

 

Stephanie Foy  34:21 

It is. So

 

Amy Hageman  34:25 

oh, gosh, life is so interesting. I just love this.

 

Yeah. Okay, so are we ready to move on to wings? Yeah. So, we identified earlier the fours wings, or the three and the five and we haven't, we know that we, you know, we just did the three recently. So, the threes, the competitive achiever, they're a doer. But we don't know that much about the Five so maybe let's start there. What's the Five wing like and how does that serve the Four?

 

Fours Wings - Three and Five 

Dana  Foy  34:59 

Well, the Fives are those the deep thinkers.

 

Um well, they set clear they can set clear boundaries for, for, like I said, okay, so I can go into thought. But what is it I'm trying to accomplish? Yeah, and an update is kind of a five, three thing together this put some boundaries around this project, when is it going to be good enough?

 

When can I? When can I call it? When can I move on to something else not only in the outer when you're creating something, but also when the inner when can I stop ruminating about this? The project's done, or, or can I set it aside. So, the five can intellectually help the four not be stuck. And, you know, emotional time.

 

Stephanie Foy  36:01 

This thing about hopefully, Fives are called Quiet Specialist. And they're thinkers. So, they by nature, can be more objective. So sometimes leaning into the Five can help the Four move out of that very subjective feeling space. And to a more objective thinking space.

 

Amy Hageman  36:25 

One of the things that you guys have, I've heard you say about the Fives is that they have a very limited amount of energy. Yes. And so de facto a Five is not going to want to be too unique, because then they'd have to spend their energy, a cultivating that and then be responding to whatever reaction people have to their uniqueness. So, I think a Five has to be so strategic with their energy that that just that concept alone might help a form of like, how much energy do I really have to expend on these emotions? And if I spend that much energy on it, then what's left for doing the job taking care of the kids, you know, whatever it is, whatever else is important, right?

 

Dana Foy  37:06 

And what to find, just with the Five energy can do the thinking and the feeling together, so they come less impulsive, and strange. Parts. It's not working. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Stephanie Foy  37:24 

Because I was gonna say that those Fours, they have unlimited energy for feelings. Like it's unlimited. And like you're saying the Five has emotional energy limited. So that whole reading that balance in from an energetic sort of standpoint, can be helpful.

 

Amy Hageman  37:47 

This is so funny, but it's just dropping into mind how funny it is that as a Two I made a podcast about how to hold space. I'm like, that would be a Two thing to do. Of course, there's nothing I can teach. That's just so funny, because I was thinking about, like, how to be with a Four.

 

And, yeah, okay, sorry, it took us off track. So then, so fives, the quiet specialist, they're discerning. They're going to help real in the Four. Where do we go with Threes?

 

Dana Foy  38:23 

Okay, so a Three there about being effective and getting things done. So, the Three and the Five, the girls and the Three that this is going to be good enough and helped him also be aware of how others might perceive them? Or what is it that I need to do to look and have an effective presentation, get along with others? Help them realize that overplaying my emotions in front of people who aren't used to that is not working for me.

 

That's what the three can do. And be aware of the impact they have on other people. Three will do that.

 

Stephanie Foy  39:03 

Yes, well, yeah. For how to be effective and how to be successful. So that means you've got to know what impact you're having on others, the Threes are pretty much other focused, as opposed to Fours, which are self-focused.

 

So you know, like figuring out, okay, how do I need? How do I need to show up? Not for me, how do I need to show up in the context of this group, this, whatever. So learning to sort of balance that for a four. And then the other thing, of course, the threes going to do for fours movement to action? You know, it's like, what are the results I need to accomplish? One of the things What's the thing I need to get done?

 

Amy Hageman  39:48 

Yeah, you know, what's so fascinating? Every time we do these, what happens in my mind is I start with whatever number we're talking about, and I get that reference. And then we start talking about the wings. and all of a sudden, that number in my mind becomes kind of a powerhouse. So, I'm thinking about this for and I'm thinking there's this creative emotional depth. But then if you can add a little bit of discernment, and like we can take, we can take an actor there, they're going to take whatever knowledge they have about the scene or about whoever they're working with, to help them direct that energy. And then we have that three in that achiever, that's going to help them give them the energy to push through and to really figure out how they're affecting others. And to just not feel their feelings for the sake of feeling them, but also to do something with them and, like, unlock the potential that emotions have. Like, if you were a four, they could harness both of those wings. I'd be like, That's pretty, pretty unstoppable.

 

Stephanie Foy  40:52 

That's why you think to me, it's like that list of actors that dad read earlier, it's like, along the way, those people have figured out how to take those emotions and move them out and do something with them. You know, Jeff had that objectivity about how when to use them? And then also how to get the results? I think there's probably a lot of unsuccessful Boers out there who are striving to be a singer songwriter, or who are striving to be an actor or an actress, but haven't gotten any haven't access their wings, enough to help them channel those emotions into something that gets bought out there in the market.

 

Amy Hageman  41:37 

Yeah. All right, for so if you're struggling, just get a coaching session. Figure out how to access your wings. That's right, we don't have time to dive deep into that. Yes.

 

Stephanie Foy  41:48 

So interesting story. So, the top Four that dad was talking about that he loves to watch from the choir Rozzers is about to go spend an extended period of time with a Three. And she's both looking forward to it and nervous about it. And so, in part because she's like a foreign chick, she's like, okay, this will be a good opportunity, like, I'm gonna see how this Three really operates. So that's one thing. And at the same time, she's like, and I'm gonna have to go like, I'm gonna have to withdraw. I know, I'm going to have to go take spend some time away before because I can't do this all the time, and it's gonna be too much. So, you know, she's aware of like, okay, this is gonna be really good for me. And, you know, here we go.

 

Amy Hageman  42:45 

So yeah, let me lean into my Five a little bit and get the heck out of here. So, I can go feel my feelings come back when I'm ready. All right. Oh, that's awesome. That's, that's just beautiful. Every time I'm noticing now that we're under the Fourth episode, I'm noticing my thought patterns. And like, every time we get to the wings, all of a sudden, that number becomes kind of unstoppable. In my mind. Yeah, I really get how you could be a well-rounded person.

 

Stephanie Foy  43:16 

Yeah, and have so much to offer. You know, really, I mean, think about the contribution that Mary Harlan has made to all of us. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

 

Amy Hageman  43:31 

Well, I and I, was thinking of the ones that that we read earlier, I'm thinking about Atlantis Morissette. Her. Her music has evolved so much in her lifetime. And part of the I listened to an interview with her not that long ago. And part of the reason it evolved is because she actually learned how to set boundaries to Dad's point. And once she learned how to set boundaries, it was like she was able to not just feel her feelings but have discernment about her feelings and why she was feeling them and do and do I want to stay stuck in this. Could I feel something else instead? You know, and so dealing with that, and recognizing her sensitivity, and yeah, it's been interesting. I think a lot of people my age maybe grew up with her. She had one of her giant little pill, her first big album was out when I was middle school or high school. And so, we've kind of grown up with her and now her music. At the time, it was maybe bitter or angry, and now it's quite spiritual. And her songs about motherhood will just make you cry in a second, you know. And so, it's fascinating. I would love to have a conversation with her about the enneagram and how she's grown in that respect because there's no way that she hasn't leaned into that five I think she had the three early on, but I think she's leaned into that five and able to I mature in a different way. So, but I digress.

 

Um, anything else about the three in the five wing? All right, well, let's move to the what's the stretch and the release for the force. And just remind me every time stretch is like our growth opportunity. If our wings aren't doing it for us, we move towards our stretch, and the release is where we need to go. You know, when the crab has been out of the shell for too long, we go to the release, right?

 

Fours Stretch and Release - One and Two

Stephanie Foy  45:31 

When we need to relax when we need to recover when we need to relieve the stress of whatever it is, I think about the stretch is if you're bored, if you don't feel like you've grown, look at your stretch point. So now Four does not force their release is the One, the strict perfectionist. And their stretch is the two. So, one being that precision discipline composure. I mean, think about those Ones, they got those very strict boundaries. They've got their very release.

 

Yeah, their stretch, that's their release. Because think about if they moved into more discipline, if they moved into more composure, they would often I would get and we give them more boundaries, which is really, yeah. It this is what this is a quote, wrap from the text. “The Action Center enables you to create some distance between your emotions and yourself.”

 

Amy Hageman  46:51 

Huh, okay, and for them not feeling emotions is a release.

 

Stephanie Foy  46:54 

Yeah, exactly. Because, yeah, they have, they have to get beyond their emotions. So there because that's the release. I mean, if you think about if you're just swim and swim, and swim, and swim, and swim and swim in that same whatever that is jealousy, fear, anger, grief. I mean, you could just say whatever it is, they tend to swim, swim, swim in that emotion, and then not get out of it. So how are you gonna get out of it? Well, okay, let's put some specific distance between me and my emotions. Let's recognize that there's principle here. Remember, ones are highly principled, they're about doing the right thing. They're about having rigor and discipline. So yeah.

 

Amy Hageman  47:45 

And for ones, the Four is the release of a stretch.

 

Stephanie Foy  47:53 

I think it's the stretch, because Two is it's the release for Four remember.

 

Amy Hageman  47:59 

Okay, that's right. Okay. So, Ones and Fours just need to be friends. Yeah, if you're a Four, you need to get your One that's going to help you settle. And if you're a One, you need to get a Four that's going to give you something to move towards, give you a role model.

 

Dana Foy  48:15 

Okay. All right.

 

Amy Hageman  48:20 

That's beautiful. Like, to me, the idea of a One being, and release is so counterintuitive. Yeah, but it does make sense if you're a Four. Yeah. All right. Okay, and then they need to come over to Two for their stretch. That's a little bit surprising to me, just because we share the emotion of things. Yeah, I guess since Twos are other oriented. That's the reason. Right?

 

Stephanie Foy  48:45 

It moves you from internal feeling to external feeling. Remember, we talked about Fours are all self-referenced, Twos are all other referenced. So they can begin to have more compassion, they can be more supportive of other people. It's, it really is moving from self to others. That's the the deal. Yeah.

 

Amy Hageman  49:12 

And Twos do take action differently than a Four, I guess Twos and Ones both take action. So that helps them examples before.

 

Stephanie Foy  49:22 

Well, and if they'll lean in, if they'll move into that to remember we talked about Fours, engage in that push pull thing in relationships. And if they can move into that two part, then it starts begins to sort of minimize that. That push pull that they experienced in relationships, interpersonal relationships.

 

Amy Hageman  49:47 

Oh, yeah. Huh. All right. And the thing about if your other focused. It's like I don't, I don't need to look for what's missing. Right? That's not A thought that enters my mind because I'm just Yeah, right. I have other unhealthy thoughts. It's not like I've reached nirvana. But but that's not one of them. Yeah, yeah, Dad anything to add about wants to stretch and release for Fours?

 

Dana Foy  50:19 

Well, I'm not really just that, what they, they can get an idea how they're impacting others go to their Two, Fours. And I think that's something that they should learn to do, if they're having difficulty holding on to reframe the relationship was in conversation with One for just a lovely woman, great talent. She says she catches guys, but they released themselves. So, I think one to the too good. No problem catching, I can catch them all. It's holding on. So, I think that's where if you're experiencing something like that, you could spend some time to kind of understand the impact you're having on. You could go to the One to one tends to be more quiet, more thoughtful.

 

I mean, I can't imagine I've got a strong a One, One wing. And I don't enjoy that sometimes. So, it's counterintuitive to me to think you would ever go to a One and ask for help. But if you don't have it, like strong, like, you know, it's not a win for them, it's a line. Other, you know, look like it gets a lot out there. So like, that's all I have to say, I just love, I enjoy.

 

Stephanie Foy  51:39 

Yeah, well, and also think about that one, and help the force the force, don’t also enjoy, like things that you would think of this mundane task, you know, that, that because that's not a creative expression. But there's a lot of things mundane tasks that we all have to do in our life. You know, just like, you know, those sorts of so that one part, that's why it seems counterintuitive was like this is going to be stress relieving to do the dishes. But in truth, it's like moving past that procrastination moving past. The resistance, this course is going to have resistance to things that are what we would think of as mundane or pedestrian. So, if you move into that one space, like I can just give up the resistance, which then is a stress reliever. Yeah. Resistance stress.

 

Amy Hageman  52:43 

I think a One because of that perfection is like they're always trying to hone their craft, whatever their craft is. So, if it's a Four, it's like, you're going to naturally just subconsciously with instinctively, if you're trying to move towards One, it's going to force you to put some purpose behind that emotion other than just feeling them. It's like, okay, I'm feeling this feeling. But I'm trying to get better at whatever it is I'm doing. And so, it's going to connect those dots of how can I use that to hone my craft, so to speak. That's fascinating. It's hilarious to me that Dad and I are Nine and Two, when we both share the One wing that we're both sort of confused, like, wait a minute, One can be somebody's release point. How is that? It just beats us up. And I think that's just Yeah, every time I say this, but I'm just so glad that we're doing this because it just gives such context to the human experience and how we all experience the same thing in such different ways and get different things from it. And for to not instinctively know that not everybody feels things that way. You know, like for somebody that's not a four, it's kind of like duh, you're pretty intense over there. You know, but so then when you learn about the Enneagram and go, oh, other people don't deal with this. Weird. Yeah. Other people don't have this inner critic.

 

Stephanie Foy  54:16 

Weird, right? Or  other people don't get washed out. I mean, I'll never forget this Four says to me, you mean you? Like you don't get taken over by your emotions? And I was like nah, hardly. I mean, it was just so odd to her. That was like, you know, but yeah, it was great. Mary, y'all remember that Mary and I trained together for a long time. And it was just absolutely great because Mary was so in tune to her emotions. And she was, um, you know, I would say a redeemed Four so she really couldn't move into that to thing. And we can sort of meet around in that to space. But it was waiting, right. But I could really help. I could really feel like I can order the day, you know, and I and I can be sure that we were moving on task, which, right? And she might get she would get overwhelmed thinking that it wasn't going well. I'm not sure this is going well, I don't know, how do you think this is going? I don't, I don't think this is going on.

 

Like theory, it's going fine. You know, partly, because I'm like, we're on time, we're moving through the material we're getting there, people will do what they do with it, we'll keep you know, we're gonna keep moving on this. And, like, don't worry about this, but she'd be like, I don't know if they're getting, I don't know. And it'd be like, it's fine. It's fine. Let's just keep up with

 

Amy Hageman  55:58 

Oh, my gosh, bless her. Bless all the Fours hearts. I can relate to that.

 

Stephanie Foy  56:03 

Yeah, well, and I could also sort of buoy her up, you know, like, because we were doing a handoff, it'd be like, Okay, you're doing this next part, you know, and then I would sort of say, okay, and the next part that it added that, you know, like when you when you know, especially if they were like doing something at their table, and they were talking gave us an opportunity to record a tee her up. So that some of that emotional stuff. She could bring it but in a way that would have value to the people in the room.

 

Amy Hageman  56:38 

Yeah. You know, the thing  that comes to mind about this, because I'm thinking it's such a beautiful example of being in relationship with a different number. But the thing that you had as a redeemed Three, is you had the ability to hold space for her emotion, and you had enough energy to not feel like you were victimized by her emotional experience. Right, you know, and so even though your numbers might have naturally worked well together anyway, it's you had to do your own work in order to show up for her and in order to appreciate what she had to give. And to see that it had value. Because if you're Miss, like, I just want to be effective, and I just want to do it the best, you know, somebody's creativity might slow you down, you know. So, in order to appreciate her gifts, I just think that's so beautiful and a helpful reminder for us, I think motivator for people that sometimes we can get lazy about wanting to do our work, so to speak. But often, it's because we don't really understand how it's going to serve us. Right, you know, so? Well, so we're talking about relationships. And we've talked about how you know, fours, need space holding is the term I gave it. Anything else we should know about? Being in a relationship with for?

 

Being in a relationship with a Four

Stephanie Foy  58:10 

Well, I think you really want to focus on opportunities for them to bring forward that creative energy and, and to value and honor that creativity. And then I think the other thing that you could do for a four is because they're constantly looking at what's missing, is the place in their life that reminds them of the good things that they have, you know, like, hold, oh, hold that space for them.

 

But look at how wonderful your life isn't, oh my gosh, isn't that right? And, you know, so be so unique. Being that person that reminds them what they do have, and what's working for them and the reassure us to? I mean, Mary knew it was interesting, because Okay, so another friend of ours, a very good friend of viruses is Seven, and so Mary the Four and the other person, the Seven would fall out, you know, they would be like, not talking. They're not, you know, they're not in the best space. But Mary and I were always fine. You know, because I'm a Three I wouldn't, I'm the one going to have the same reaction to her spec to her deal, as the Seven did. So, I could just be with her and we were we'd know okay, we're going to be fine. No matter what.

 

Amy Hageman  59:43 

So yeah, that makes sense. The seven has this big vision they you know, they want to go and do things and be adventurous. They don't have time for all your feelings.

 

Stephanie Foy  59:51 

Well, and even this one is who's highly sensitive, but they would get to a place where they didn't agree and then they couldn’t figure out who they are.

 

Amy Hageman  1:00:09 

But, yeah, so yeah, so, as a two, I'm imagining, if I'm in relationship with a Four, and a Four is feeling all their feelings I'm wondering, I'm gonna have to have to take over.

 

Stephanie Foy  1:00:32 

That's true.  But you have to hold your own space. Because remember, Twos are other reference in there. Others, they're so sensitive to others’ feelings and Fours have second big feelings is like, work or just take her to or, you know, tilt.

 

Amy Hageman  1:00:49 

Yeah, I guess what I'm wondering is this hypothesis, and we might not even know the answer. But I'm thinking, a normal emotional reaction for Four might look like, extreme depression for any other number. You know, like, so just in terms of how, as literally, that's where I was going as a to is like, I'm going to be, I'm going to tend to want to freak out when really, they're just being a four. And they're going to feel it as long as they want to wallow in it, and then they won't. And so, I'm gonna have to not overreact. That's my like, hypothesis is that what is natural for four? might cause me to have a red flag, when really, it's just them. It's a yellow flag. Does that make sense?

 

Stephanie Foy  1:01:45 

Yeah. Okay, yeah, I think you do have to be sensitive to, you know, when are they just being for and when, when is across the line into something that we would consider unhealthy and in need of, you know, professional?

 

Amy Hageman  1:02:06 

Yeah. Um,

 well, anything else about horse? Dad has been a bit since you said anything? Well, do we want to add about being in relationship with them or anything in general?

 

Dana Foy  1:02:18 

Well, here's what I'll tell you, if you're in a relationship with a Four is number one, they don't like to be ignored or slighted. So, if you are really trying to be intimate with or make sure that they're getting, you're paying them appropriate enough. And ask them to do something that's contrary to their values, is, that's a broad spectrum about how they think feel, Oh, II, close, I mean, you got to keep some space around the ordinary. And any event that elicits their envy.

So, if you're with a partner, and you come to know them, you just got to have to try to Frank things, that's not going to generate some envy. Because it may be natural for them to see someone that has a bigger diamond ring, somebody hasn't been to your house, or somebody has a better looking husband, whatever it is, you're gonna have to tell them what you have us right, and you have no idea what they're dealing with inside that big fancy house, you have no idea how that handsome husband's treating her. And you don't know, if they're still making payments on that big fancy diamond ring, you got to bring it down to earth, and kind of work with them and help them. It may be sometimes if you're with a four and you're going to a place that you think they're gonna have their envy, or they're going to recharge coach them up before they go in there. And then you just go in there and you have a small dose, don't give them times to swim in it. And then also be a master of changing the subject. If they're getting into something and you see it, you see a pattern developing that you think is unhealthy or that you don't enjoy, find a way to change the subject. And what other else they get triggered? Well, they don't receive credit for what they do. So, you've got to remind them of the quality of their work and the value they bring to the relationship. And anytime they feel like they're not good enough, tell him you know, you're more than enough remind them of the things that have served them. And also, I just think you have to be kind of help them continue on their journey to go from the highs, the low sides of that they're just, no, you know, what, what JK Rowling has done for us all these fabulous bores in the Cumberbatch that some of the roles he's played in these movies, they're very different from one or the other. See that a guy that has that kind of talent, that he's gone with his wings and his lies to help deliver something really different. So, things like that, just know that if you're going to be relationship with your four is it's your job to nurture them and help them and help them to not be stuck.

 

And also, if you're going to commit to a Four relationship, you can learn not to take things personal. That is your mother has said before, sometimes it's not them. It's just that subtype that they're acting out that's got control over who they really are, and how they really feel. They're just probably having an emotional display this morning, that appears extreme to you. But they don't get it that it's extreme to anybody. Just I just felt like in that moment, this is what I'm feeling, and they don't aren't aware of the impact. So, I guess I've said a lot there. That's how I would be with it.

 

Amy Hageman  1:05:51 

As you were talking, I think some things were adding up for me, which was, there's the uniqueness, and then the extreme emotion. And it's occurring to me and no offense to fours, but I'm assuming a four has a pretty fragile ego. Would that be accurate? No, it's just so you're we're generalizing on these short podcasts, across all types of different people, everybody's foreignness is different. Like the one lady, I said, I didn't think she was foreign. So, she sat down with the table where the fours were. She doesn't identify a lot of things I just said. I'm so I'm talking about people who are really coming from the UK, the baby for you talking about just now becoming aware that they can enjoy themselves if they work on being a little bit different. So that's where I want to go, it's hard for me to stereotype, this category of creative people.

 

Right had different experiences. Yeah, the billions of people on Earth, we're gonna put you in nine categories. Boxes. You just right there. Mom, did you want to add anything?

 

Stephanie Foy  1:07:11 

No, just that, you know, their, their fear is that they won't have significance, you know, are and that they have to be true to themselves, and they have to make a difference. So those are the things that are important to them. So, it's like, how do you frame that?

 

Amy Hageman  1:07:36 

Yeah, they wouldn't have a really meaningful life as my right. Absolutely. From that. Yeah.

 

Stephanie Foy  1:07:46 

So we think about supportive feedback, supportive feedback is very important to for and think about what are the elements that they need to hear? Well, they need to hear how what they did made a contribution, how it made a difference, and what creativity they brought to it that was valuable to you. Because that's going to give them what they need in terms of.

  

Amy Hageman  1:08:13 

Right, right. Hmm. I love that. Thank you for bringing it back to the feedback. So, I'd love to get to that kind of detail about what just you know, I think we all want to compliment and give each other feedback, but we don't necessarily have to do it. Well, so. Yeah.

 

Perfect. Well, I think I'm ready to wrap up unless there's, are you guys ready to wrap up?

 

Dana Foy  1:08:33 

I think so. All right.

 

Amy Hageman  1:08:35 

So, I'm going to take us out on some sort of, I'm going to say one more thing, because it doesn't quite go into the blessing. But I was just thinking about and Dad, you already said it. That the Fours that you listed are some of the most idolized people in our country, world, you know. And so, the irony that a lot of Fours have trouble hanging on to relationship, you know, when the Fours that that we see on the public stage are so revered. And so, I think that just points to how to how do we support them to take on the other skills and to go to their release when they need to? And I just think that's so fascinating. That that could be a struggle, you know? So, all right, fours. We love you. We honor you and we don't really know you because all of you are so different. which we think is great. And we look forward to visibly seeing you because we know you're going to look fantastic. And feel your feelings. Don't wallow, please. And we'll talk to y'all soon guys come back for Enneagram five my love's Thank you for listening to the living out love podcast.

 

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