Music as a Tool for Healing and Growth: Gary Norian's Insights

TRANSCRIPT

Gary Nohrian's album "Be Revealed" and its impact on the interviewer's life.

Amy Hageman  00:00

Hello loves! I just finished recording the interview you're about to listen to with Gary Norian. Gary Norian is the piano player at my church Unity Church of Houston. And back in 2007, he released an album called be revealed. And if you look for the album on Spotify, it's going to come up under the name kin Gale, that is the performer on the album, the singer on the album. And Gary Nohrian wrote almost all of the songs on the album. And so I for years have wanted to pick his brain about this album, because it has created so many meaningful moments in my life. Just some of the different songs and the times that they've come up either, you know, at church when I've gone, or just when I've listened to the album, I've had profound moments of expansion of feeling understood of release, just very just some meaningful moments. And yeah, it's just it was just an honor to to get to finally pick his brain. And I really encourage you all to listen to the album, we're gonna link to it in the show notes on Spotify, and probably on Amazon. And there, there are some really, really beautiful, fun, Full of Wisdom, pieces of music on there. And I I hope that if you get half as much out of that album as I have gotten, it will be well worth your time. So enjoy my interview with Gary Nohrian. Right, so I'm officially starting our interview now. And one of the reasons I'm so excited and nervous to talk to you is years ago, I started this podcast and the first year that I did it, I didn't even do interviews. But when I started the podcast, I was like someday I might do interviews, and I really want to interview Gary Nohrian. Like you were literally the first person that came to mind that I wanted to talk to. So this has been a bucket list thing. And now we're hearing we're doing it.

Gary Norian  02:19

Excellent. Sounds great. Yeah.

Amy Hageman  02:21

And so I know very little about you. So would you just introduce yourself to me into the podcast? Like, who are you? What do you do? And yeah, okay,

Spirituality, music, and personal growth.

Gary Norian  02:33

Well, today, I am. Husband and parent. So I have been married for it'll be 25 years coming up on October 31 of this year. And I have a 17 year old daughter who's graduating high school this year. So we're in the midst of the college process. So that's where I am in my life in terms of those items. I've been a pianist musician for as long as I can remember. So I currently, most of what I do is teach right now. So I have a large stable of private students. And I've been doing that for probably about 20 to 23 years. And I also just took a adjunct faculty position at UHD teaching jazz piano there. I obviously play piano and do musical duties at Unity Church. I've been doing that since roughly 1999 2000 When I moved to Houston, and then you know, so the background before that. I lived in Chicago, I came down here in 2000. Summer 99 2000 With with my wife met up in Chicago. While I was there, I was playing in the jazz scene, I wrote music for jingles for TV and radio. So a little bit of what we'd call the jingle scene or the studio music scene up there. And prior to that, I'd done my you know, sowing my wild oats playing in bands and touring and things like that, but all to bring us up to where I am today primarily teaching occasionally a private performance but mostly it's teaching and the unity work.

Amy Hageman  04:19

Will talk to me about your relationship with spirituality.

Gary Norian  04:26

Okay, so that small topic.

Amy Hageman  04:31

Yeah,

Gary Norian  04:31

I would say that that that. I think if I had had an inkling you know, I grew up in a kind of a I would say conservative Reformed Judaism, Jewish household so you know, we we partook of the the traditions and all that and while that was more family centered, you know, we spent holidays with with family members and we go to synagogue for the holidays. I did have a Bar Mitzvah. So I think at that age, it was more, there wasn't much of a connection as opposed to the cultural connection, going through the the, the, the rituals and moments in your life when, when that would come into play. But it was wasn't until I would say late high school, early college where I started thinking that maybe that wasn't not the complete answer, not not that it couldn't have been if I had pursued it in Judaism, but has it was presented to me. There was like a ceiling on the depth, and it seemed more doing these rituals. So that led me to, you know, I would say, in my early 20s, just looking to see beyond what what I had learned, was there something else and in that process, I was exposed to, you know, Eastern philosophy. So Buddhism, and then a little bit of a mix with, you know, contemporary physics and how those things, you know, in so much as I was able to understand that, but I didn't read a lot of books that kind of covered those two angles. And then when I moved to Chicago, after being on the road, I had a friend who was, was at his house, piano, there was a book by a Buddhist monk, and it seemed very interesting. So I went out, bought that book. And that led me into a real deep search and under, I was definitely searching for why these things had become popular throughout the centuries. And in my search, through that, I also was in the bookstore, looking for Buddhist books. And then right next door, that section was a number of books on Christ. And I think, you know, what, when I was growing up, it was kind of never really talked about it, you know, is it that talk about Jesus and I was like, Well, seems to be kind of a common thing that people are talking about. So on my own, I did some research into that, and number of books, so it was just a lot of reading and in taking information and, and through that, I was able to kind of see how, at the core of these world religions, there was a connection that was beneath the dogma and rhetoric, and even even just words themselves. And so from there that just kind of like took took its own path towards the non dual aspect of all those religions. I think that's where I kind of settled, I felt like I am not the seeker anymore, but that it's those things kind of make sense. And it gives me a way to, through that understanding, look at the world, and relationships and things that happened to me. And for me, and from Me, too. It's a it's a, an understanding that allows me to kind of process the world. So if that makes sense, not necessarily linear.

Amy Hageman  08:15

No, well, nothing ever is. 

Gary Norian  08:17

Yes.

Amy Hageman  08:20

I'm, I'm curious. What I know most about you is the music that gets played at Unity Church, some of which you wrote. And so for me, I, my brain has you associated with music and spirituality being very intertwined? So I'm curious, if how much of that resonates for you is it intertwine some of the time? How long has it been? Is it not a thing?

Gary Norian  08:49

Well, I would say that it's always intertwined no matter what, I did not consider that it was intertwined. Until you know, later in life, and it might have been into my 30s or so when I was kind of starting to settle into how things were for me spiritually speaking. So prior to that, I think, you know, I teach so I know that there's a, especially in not just learning music theory, but I teach jazz and creative music. So there's this there's a seeking of knowledge from music, and vocabulary and be able to do this and do that and play this and understand this and theory, and it's an accumulation of information. And then you're trying to execute it and apply it, you can show what you've learned. And there's a there's an underlying spiritual aspect to that, anyway, but usually, at that moment, you're not thinking about that. You just, can I play this, can I learn this? Can we show you know, can I put put a song together and there's, there's, you know, parts that go together and there's tools that go into it. So it is very up here. And of course, up here is here, but only to recognize it. But for that moment, it is it's a pursuit. So I think that's that it was all it always been like that.

Gary Norian  10:17

So as the spiritual side of it kind of started aligned for me, I started to realize that it wasn't my brain that was generating these ideas, because there's nothing there that come from somewhere, okay, it's just like, these ideas are coming to me. And I noticed that, the harder I tried, the less creative I was. And I would notice that in jazz performances, where it's, it's on the spot, and you having to be creative, that the more I was thinking about it, this is like, everybody knows everyone in jazz Gnosis like the harder you try. But you have to have no theory you have to have your your your knowledge base, but the harder you're, you're thinking about it, the less you are available to actually be creative and let your knowledge and muscle memory flow through you to become art at the moment. So I became became recognized, as such, recognize that, and it took it was easily 1520 years before, over and over again. It's like, why is it that when I think about it, sucks, and then when I'm like not thinking about it, it's great. It's like, it was like, it was a surprise when it was great, even you know, in writing or anything. So that was that that idea kind of crystallized to me that that there's something operating is it's through me. And obviously you have to have the knowledge and the information to to process what's coming through you. But there's a fine line and a balance to being open to what's coming in, whether you're writing or you're spontaneously playing in a group or by yourself, where the minute you try to force it, you lose contact with what's coming through. So it's a tight rope, it's a little bit of, of back and forth. So to me, it was just recognition to that. And then, you know, working at unity. The challenge was, I decided that it would be I wanted to write some songs that encapsulated those teachings. So the writing process itself, you know, again, if you're putting puzzle pieces together, and you're but but the ideas that kept coming, I was like, Oh, it's coming. And there's a natural kind of feeling to that. 

Spirituality, creativity, and songwriting.

Amy Hageman  12:38

So I want to affirm something that you said, and then I want to dig into the writing. So just yesterday, I had a mediumship reading. And when I wasn't trying, it was just minutes before the mediumship reading, I was getting all this insight into the experience that my client was having before I even talked to them, because I just wasn't trying, I was like doing my dishes preparing for the reading. And the reading starts and I try to connect and it's like crickets. And then finally, like we work our way, it's fine, you know, but then later, something came up. And I was like, Oh my gosh, all those things that came through while I was just doing the dishes. I sort of thought because they came so easily to me that I was just making it up. And I was like projecting what was going to happen in this reading. But no, sure enough, it was just spirit was like, Oh, you're ready. Like let's let's go. Yeah, so it's the same in my work as it is. You know, that's just fascinating.

Gary Norian  13:36

Yeah. It is!

Amy Hageman  13:37

So the revealed album. And I'm, you have other songs than what's on the revealed album that's just not on the CD. Are those all the songs that you've written?

Gary Norian  13:48

No, I would say I mean, I write in a lot of different styles. So but but I'm not.

Amy Hageman  13:53

Yeah. 

Gary Norian  13:54

I am not a very prolific songwriter. So if I'm sitting down to write a song, I mean, I have I put a lot of pressure on myself. Like it's got to be a masterpiece. I'm not like I've friends and students who just are so prolific, they write so many songs, they're just great with words. And so for me, it's more of a labor to turn the idea into a full blown song and have a message and so those those were that was a group and then after that, I would say maybe there's another 15 or 20 that came out of it that that were never recorded that we will do at Unity but that's that that core group was the that was the I had a number of points I want to cover. 

Amy Hageman  14:35

Yeah. So this album for those that are listening to the podcast, this came the album came out in 2007. But some of the songs were probably performed at Unity. Leading up to that. I have a vivid I have two vivid memories of I want to look at my notes to make sure I you have a song I think it's the first A song on the album called when your love shines through me. The first time I heard it, I remember thinking, this is everything like this is. Yes, like this is so true. Like I was like How have I not heard this before. And then the second time I heard it my first thought was, I wish I had written this. It's just so good. I wish I had written it. And before I could even like finish that thought, it just that song can, if you're open and you're ready for it, or at least for me, it shifts me into a state of bliss, a specific, I don't want to call it bliss, because I'm very it's grounded. It's but it's this embodied bliss of remembering the experience that we that we can have while we're here. It's so powerful in such a joyous way. You know, like there's, there's other songs and even on this album that are powerful in a way that they are healing and that they're cathartic. But that song, I just wish I had written it, I can't think of a better way to describe what it means to be a human have, like a divine being having a human experience that we forget about our like, the whole, just that you have this whole other album of good songs, like it's just, it's wild to me.

Gary Norian  16:39

Thank you.

Amy Hageman  16:39

So I mean, I literally I have notes on like, half the songs on here of the memories that I have of hearing them and sitting and getting up and dancing. And just there's I don't know if it's you being the the puzzle pieces and letting them come in. Or if it is like I don't know what your creative process is. But it it works. Well, thank you. It works.

Songwriting process and target audience.

Gary Norian  17:06

Well, I'll tell you that. Also, when I hear a song I like that I didn't write. That's my first thought. I wish I wrote that. Oh, great. Yeah. So that's, that's usually my benchmark for for song today, like as well. So yeah, the whole The reason I wanted to do that, that recording, right, those songs, I think was at a time when Howard Caesar, who was the minister at the time was was starting to talk a lot about I mean, hidden in his own journey, he had gotten into the kind of the non dual, and he never qualified as non dual, but he used the word oneness. And the, the direction of his his lessons were going in that direction, the direction was going toward that, that concept and that idea, and, you know, articulating in so many different ways. This is, you know, it's like you're trying to describe something that is beyond words. So there's always that leap. Yeah, for me. And that was aligning with the things that I was discovering and learning and working on in my own world, so. And we had this great set of singers, and Ken was just coming on board. Music in the new thought where this is I don't mean to disparage the music and the new thought world. But if you compare the emotional impact that music in like contemporary Christian, or gospel, where you can say things that don't necessarily align with with Unity principles, or just words, you know, blood and the cross, and like there's an emotional impact with that music that is very powerful for those who are listening. Okay, so with Unity, the music and it tended to be borrowed from pop music that kind of got close to a message, or Christian contemporary music, that when we changed some lyrics, and there was just there was never an impact that I felt could be there. So I had a challenge to myself was, is there a way to say these things? Which are deep principle? It's not just like, you know, I believe? Well, that's, you could say that, but it does, it doesn't take you anywhere, okay, maybe with a great groove and a great beat and, you know, powerful chords, this can feel like something, but does it really go anywhere? So So my challenge was, is there a way to take these ideas and have put them into a format that would have a rise and fall and a trajectory of emotional in the same way that any good song would have? So that was my challenge to myself and to take these principles and the ideas and to me every song way out I thought of it. And I guess it's kind of, I think any, any good song has to start with just a simple idea. The idea for me was, I had a real revelation or realization about something like, boom, okay, I understand this thing now, and this is this is it's taken hold in my life, and then turn that tiny little idea into a beginning, a middle and an end. And of course, that can be repeated that that, that, you know, of course, when the chorus comes up, and it impacts what happened in the verse, and then there's a second person, then the next course impacts, reveals what happened in that previous and then this other section. So they all start with with a realization, and then making it sort of blossom into what would be a song that had a beginning and a middle and an end, and hopefully an emotional impact to the listener, which would be me first, because I was I had, and I, you know, as a writer, you know, my filter is high, if it's cheesy, is it is, am I getting closer that you really nail it? So a lot of filtering, I haven't, I still have the book of lyrics. And it'd be like page one, now it's page two, coming together, page three, everything crossed out page, you know, will usually take six to eight pages before it turned in this thing, where it's just like, No erasing no marks. And then I knew that the lyrics were in place. And so it was always out of a small core idea, blown out into what would turn into the song itself.

Amy Hageman  21:38

So I think you've kind of already answered this question, but I want to ask it more explicitly. So when, when you're writing the songs? Who are you writing for? And, like, Did you always have an album in mind? Or were you just like, starting to write songs, because you saw that there was a need? 

Gary Norian  22:01

Um, I did, I was both I wanted to write individual songs, that would be a collection. So that was kind of like, you know, the timing of you know, meeting Ken and Ken Ken coming on board, church. And I had a friend who was I was working with already and a recording studio, and it just kind of things started to align. So I kind of it all came together. The idea was, hey, I'm gonna write a number of songs to cover these very, you know, that I didn't know, I didn't make a list of of topics, I just knew that at some point, I'd kind of be finished. Yeah, meaning, my goal. So I want to say everything I have to say about this. And that leaves, you know, at least, personally, and not leave anything unsaid, without too much overlap or redundancy. And that without leaving anything out, that might be like, Oh, that's a big thing you just left out Gary, so you shouldn't, it just kind of seemed like it was gonna be over at certain point. So I just kept writing until also filmed about 70 minutes on the CD. So there's a little bit of that. So in terms of who I was writing for, it was I was trying to write at the same time for me, as if I was writing to myself. But also that so that the subject could be that when you say I or me, or you, it's not the person like me, are you? Okay? I was the closest I got to think when you say you and your speaking of God, or spirit, you even that's like, because then it's no longer non dual, because you're assigning pronoun or a name to something else. Okay? So, but for the sake of art, and, you know, but then there could also be like, someone could listen to that, who is not tuned into oneness or anything and think that could be my dad, or that could be God, or that could be you know, or like the song Let me I had, I remember that one that I wanted that to be a song as if it was sung from spirit from God. But it could be a mother to a child, or so. So I wanted to have have multiple words be the one who's speaking and the one who's listening, I want to have multiple variations for those things to connect. So that wasn't, so there was no need to know who it was, who was speaking or who was listening, then it could it could apply to everybody if that makes sense.

The spiritual significance of music and archetypes. 

Amy Hageman  24:40

It it totally makes sense. And it's so it's interesting. So let me we it was sung at church, I don't know weeks ago, within the last few months. And of course, I've heard the song before But there was something. And it was one of those days where like, I'm happy, I'm going to church, everything's fine. It's not like I had something on my heart and mind at the time that I knew, was like heavy in some way. But there was something about that morning, where King Gale started singing Let me and it, and it just hit me that there was some stuff that I was carrying, that I didn't have to carry. You know, like, sometimes I think as humans we take things on, right, that we can't even control anyway. But we just sort of carried them around as if we can. And I just started crying, like with, not with sadness, but it was just like, I get to release this now. Yeah. And just the invitation of Let Me, whatever, there's different lyrics. I just was like, great. I will let you like, and it's, it's powerful that music can do that. But it only does that when somebody like you creates it that way, when when the lyrics have the meaning. And they have the depth. Because I think you're right, you know, in New Thought churches, sometimes it's like, well, let's just find a pop song that's inspiring, because we don't want to be too dogmatic and oh my gosh, just the invitation to healing that is in some of your songs is so powerful. And sometimes there are times when, like, I'm not in a in a place where I necessarily need it or resonate with the message that day, but I can feel somebody else in the audience having a moment. And then because I understand it so well, because the the songs are so timeless, that it's, it's like I can just hold space for like, what that experience is. Ah, I feel like each of these songs is like an archetype in my ongoing spiritual relationship. What was the other side was gonna bring up let me was one of them. Your song I am loved, which we often use it church as like leading into the meditation. I love to sing that song at nighttime and my kids don't let me sing at nighttime anymore. They love that lasted for like two weeks, but I sing it in my mind it's, it's, it just feels like truth. It you know, like, it's, it's not like, you uncovered some great mystery. All you're doing is telling me the truth of what I already know to be my experience, but nobody else has put it into words that way. Right? Right. And it's so helpful to repeat that for myself. And it in that case where this road will lead me home.

It just brings, it centers me It brings me a calms me. That's one of the archetype songs of like, come back to the spiritual perspective. You know, come back to peace, come back to the spiritual perspective. I'm just, holy cow.

Gary Norian  28:34

Well, thank you. Well, I think the word archetype is probably I guess that would be it seems like all the facets that make up that that collection of songs, I think that's probably a good word to use. I don't know if I was thinking along the lines, but here you say it makes. Yeah, it makes perfect sense. And really, that's for me that that a test that those songs before it went out to for anybody to listen to, it had to work for me. You know, so I think like, like, no cheesiness. I mean, it's very, very careful to manage that, you know, as just as an artist, so that's where like, the your brain comes into it and you're like, Okay, well, the rhyme scheme or the moment when this word happens on this valatie those those things are they they come into play so there is thought and all that of course that goes into the architecture, but at one point when it's over feel like okay, this is done and I would play it you know, and then check it the next day so that a few days where has to like get the spot right away and then I'm like, Okay, well, maybe somebody else like it, that's really that's really where it was like it had kind of come from from both artistically and spiritually and, you know, and then checking the boxes of, you know, the standards by which I would judge music, you know, evaluate music and say, Okay, that's that's, that's, that's quality. That's that's hitting the mark. That's, that's emotional. It's moving directionally in the right place. So those are subjective. But I think I'm able to sit, sit back and say there are objective, you know, good, bad networks that doesn't, you know, you got to kind of go through that as part of it.

Writing spiritual songs and creative process.

Amy Hageman  30:24

Yeah, and I, you know, it's interesting. So you're saying like, it can't be cheesy. I'm thinking about the when your love shines through me song, I could see how that like, that could easily have gone cheesy. But it it? It doesn't, because there's just so much truth there. I could see how somebody that maybe, maybe it was less with a different spiritual background, or with less spiritual grounding, might feel it as cheesy. Whereas to me, I always feel like this is the invitation to step into this affirmation. Sure. And most of the time, I want to step into it with such joy. And I want to step into it with intention, like, Yes, I'm going to embody this truth, you know. And it's, it's that that song is so like I said earlier, it's so joyous and positive that there have been only one or two times since 2007, there have only been one or two times when I've heard that song that I've just been like, No, I can't listen, I don't buy it. Like, like, it's like, I'm too. I'm too convinced of my own suffering right now to let my stratosphere, you know, but it was also my clue at the time of like, oh, Amy, you have some you have some work to do.

Gary Norian  31:51

I think that's that's, I did try to write I mean, I think any good song, I think any song that I didn't write that I still love, there's a timeless nature to it, whether it's an old rock to the 70s, or, you know, an old standard from 30s, or 40s 1930s, or 40s. So, you know, I, that was part of the process was was trying to make something that was timeless, in terms of the message, you know, a song like that, yes, it could it, I think it's easy to write, it's easier to write slower songs. be impactful, okay, because then you're just like, you're just getting in that mode. And I was thinking, the audience for this is Unity Church, new thought people. So it was, it wasn't like, I was even trying to go outside one particular audience, but up tempo song like that one. So a lot of what helps that work is, you know, the groove and the underlying beat and the style, which creates an underlying what kind of subconscious effect, okay, so you're feeling it, and you're grooving along with it. And that lays the groundwork, and then now you're open for the words, you know, so I know that the words and music have to go together, it's all that and it could have been something else, it could have been a different groove or different style. And I worked with Alan let at that time who produced the music. So my job was always just, I want the song to stand on its own. If you're just playing piano and singing or playing guitar and singing, then I'll give him some direction like, hey, I need it to be let's, let's get to this this thing and work his magic and then come back the next day. And really, nine times out of 10. I was like, that's awesome. Let's go with it, you know. So there's that component of the music part of it before and with the lyrics helps to create a an energy that allows a listener to take it in. Those things go together.

Amy Hageman  33:49

So I'm curious I'm going to use a metaphor that's usually used for women. But when we talk about creative projects, we usually put it in the paradigm of like giving birth. Like that we birthed the creative project. So I'm, I'm curious for you did that. For me when I think about giving birth, like it's joyous, their spiritual connection, but there's also contractions, it's also messy. I'm curious, what was your experience, your creative experience? And did you feel my assumption is that because you were writing songs of a spiritual nature that you that you felt more intimate with your spirituality at the time of this? Or did it? Or were perhaps was it frustrating? Like, I'm just curious how that what was your creative process like?

Songwriting process and creativity.

Gary Norian  34:39

Literally all those things, you know, it starts out with with a little bit of an idea, you know, it'd be brushing my teeth, like, Oh, that'd be cool to write a song about it. So they get this idea. Got it down. And then, you know, my process I know people who write songs like they'll sit down and come up with this brilliant lyrics, and a half an hour says they're just not like that. For me, so I have the idea. And I've just started generating thoughts that go with the idea. And then maybe at some point, there's enough words in there that I might try thinking of a melody for one of the lines if the line. So it's a process, and then this could go on for days. And sometimes I would sit down, hey, I got this great idea. This line sounds really cool. It'd be the title of this, the chorus line, or then tried to write, I would typically try to write my courses first, the part that comes around over and over again, and massage it into place, and I sit down the piano start working on melody, and then chords, like, Oh, this is a good vibe, this is this seems cool. And then that would inform how everything else, but it's a process. So like the birth is this, there's the the, the seed, the, you know, like the there's a gestation period, that could be like a week, it could be like, two weeks, and then there's like this, there's that one line, it's just not coming together yet. And then that may work out or like that line needs to be fixed. And then with that affects some other things that were above it, and they need to work out. So it's a process, I would say, on average, you know, maybe a week or so, until it's like, okay, this is sitting somewhere. But the there's thinking about it all the time. So you know, I could sitting sitting down actively writing, but then I might be driving somewhere, like, trying to work that one section, it's not there, it's not there, just over and over in my head. And, ah, that's the word. Sometimes it's, you know, looking for a rhyme. If there's a rhyme scheme set up, and I might go to the, you know, rhyming dictionary, and like, oh, I hadn't thought of that word, or that's a better word, nine didn't replace the one that I had. So it's the craft part of it. And the inspirational part of it is all working together. But I would say heavy on the inspiration at the beginning, in this craft, you know, you are maintaining your health, eating, taking your, you know, your prenatal vitamins. And then just like, keeping the craft of it in line, and moments of inspiration would come in. And then at one point, it's like, I think it's done. And then let it sit for a couple days. And if it's still done in three days, or four days, and probably it's all you can do.

Amy Hageman  37:27

Do you consider yourself a spiritual teacher? I mean, I shouldn't have asked a yes or no question. 

Music, creativity, and spirituality.

Gary Norian  37:36

No, no, it depends. I mean, you know, I find myself and you know, the same 17 year old daughter, right, try to impart some lessons to you'll see when your daughters are 17, they may not want to hear those lessons. So but I do, I mean, in that in that regard, not not not where I'm sitting up in front of a room, you know, on a chair, parting knowledge or anything, but but I like to think that it's by example, or that if if, if I if somebody hears a song, and they get something out of it, then I would say that a lesson that I have learned, has been shared by somebody else, you know, not administering that lesson in terms of here's a great idea, you should check this out. This will have this helped me to help us more like, you listen to this. And it may may get you to the place where I was when it came to me, or may get you somewhere else. So it's a little more open ended than I would say direct transmission type of teaching. You know, in my, in my literal piano teaching world. Oftentimes, in the process of teaching, detailed musical thoughts. There's a window of spirituality that comes in there in terms of teaching someone to be open to their own creativity, because that's a lot of what I teach is trying to teach people to be creative, and helping them get out of their own way, which is a very lofty and vague, abstract concept. But it's totally true. And so you have to kind of choose someone to trust themselves to be like, Okay, well, Gary said to do this, but I don't know how to do it. And I might point them in a direction. So I would say answer your question. indirectly so.

I've noticed that in the new thought movement, that there's lots of singing ministers, both at our church and in other churches, and so I think that there is and I had nine months in choir, but prior to my nine months in choir, I was a dancer for a long time. So I think that there's naturally for a lot of people. A very symbiotic relationship between spiritual morality and art, you know? Yeah. And so for me, selfishly, I listen to your album and I think, is there a blog? Is there another album? Like, where can I get some more, you know, and no pressure. I just, I find it interesting that, that you have this album that in, in many significant but undefinable ways, has helped me change my life in small moments where I was able to shift something, or release something or heal something. This album has fostered me in that. And so, but normally I just see you, like, you come on stage and you play and then you leave. And so I'm like, Well, what, what else is going on? You know, there's probably this wealth of knowledge that we're all missing out on, I feel like.

Well, I'm just a regular dude, who happens to write songs. I mean, it's, it's in that in that in that, that album, and it's if I'm backing up a step, if you have that experience from listening to that music, then that's more than I could have asked for mine that because it really what I was trying to do was I wanted to put into words and music, these ideas that don't necessarily match up with music. Now, it's hard to to put those into affirmations. And and I don't want to say affirmations, I needed to use metaphor, and I needed to dig a little deeper in terms of lyrics. And I knew I had the music part of it under control, but to match the music with with those ideas. So my objective was was very small, I wanted to say the things I wanted to say, that came through me and into me, and then I could listen back to it, and it would still be like, went to circular effect. And then if anybody else got anything out of it, that's a bonus. So I appreciate. But I feel like I've said and I have written songs since then. But I think that that collection for me is like I said, everything I need to say about it. Because otherwise I'm gonna start being read down. Yeah, I might say the same thing. Well, yes, you could, but then I would feel redundant. So that's why I'm not the most prolific songwriter, I pushed myself to write those songs. And in a good way, it was a good push. And then the music I've written since then, it's there are some peripheral topics that maybe with more specificity were addressed, you know, so there's a handful of songs that that kind of song and a Michael sung a few and when Alan that was there, you know, I'd like something about gratitude or things. Okay, well, I didn't cover that. But it was it's worth a little more specificity in terms of the writing, but, you know, when I'm coming when I'm on stage, and Sunday morning, waking up, go to my church job, even with all the various traffic, and the people on the stage, and you know, there's someone's not prepared or, you know, I forgot something, I'm it's like, it's, you know, it's it's work, it's a job to do. But yeah, but it's like, it's not like it's not, you know, it's in the grand scheme of things. It's easy work. And then I'm grateful that I have a skill set. And yeah, aptitude for working with other people, that allows me to, you know, do this for a living, either it's teaching music, playing music, writing music, working with other people. So while I'm there, yes, I have a task at hand. And if it's, there are moments there are there are weeks when it's it's all task or just trying to get through it. And then there are tasks, moments or days when it's just like, it feels really good. And it's gelling. And it's one of those moments where just everything feels great. You know, and we're just like, okay, that happened. It's weird, because, you know, we all get off stage. And musicians rarely ever say anything to each other after, you know, it's just like, we get off we're like, we smile and we all go off center as well, maybe high five, and that felt good. But there's not a there's not a there's not a debrief or a postgame film. It's like, it's great. Like, that's it like contact me. Or if it was horrible for like Internet fax, no, there's there is a a an aspect to that that is just about the details and what happened, but then within that there could be a moment of like, that was awesome. And then the day is over and I go home and I you know, go grocery shopping or whatever. Yeah, deep.

Music, spirituality, and grief.

Amy Hageman  44:57

Back to the back to humanity.

Gary Norian  44:59

Yeah.

Amy Hageman  44:59

Well, I have to say I hadn't. Because again, I don't know you that well at all. And I wanted to do you know, some research leading into this. So when I reached out to you months ago about doing an interview, I was like, I need to really make sure I even understand, you know, did he really write that whole album and so on, I found you on Spotify, and found your heart first album, which I did not know existed until a few moments ago, a heart first or heart rising, I wrote our first

Gary Norian  45:32

Yeah. 

Amy Hageman  45:33

Okay. And, and then, in preparing for this, I've been, you know, listening to the be revealed album, and you have a song live on in me, that had never really hit my radar. And then I was like, this is kind of a medium shift. And I'm, I have literally thought to myself, I need to write a song for people about what happens with their loved ones. Because I personally, growing up in Unity Church and new thought, I have a very palatable definition of death, you know. Whereas people that have come to me for mediumship the amount of burden and devastation that they have, a lot of times to me is rooted in what their ideas are about death and the afterlife. And I always wish that there was like, something I could give them, aside from whatever is going to come through me in the reading something that I could give them to hold on to, or to like, and I know there's books and stuff out there. But I was, it didn't hit me just this week, I was listening to the album and I was listening to the live on in me and I was like, this is he already wrote it like, it's already done.

Gary Norian  47:02

To be perfectly honest, but that that's the one song that I did not write the lyrics, I wrote the music to it. And then a friend of mine, a high school friend of mine, who's credited on the album, Dean is his name. When I was living in Chicago, we we reunited after I'd been living in Miami for like eight years ago, when I moved back to Chicago, we linked back up and we're writing a number of songs together pop songs, and I that was a song where so I would write the music. And then I give them the cassette back in those days, so and then we get together a few days, and you'd be like, you're the lyrics I came up with. Okay, so I had written that whole thing on piano. And then he wrote these lyrics to it. And he said, here's the idea. It's, you know, digital in his head of a woman sitting on a beach, who's whose son was, it wasn't even he had died, he was just in another country and was never going to come, it was like to hear to hear him. I think that's how it went. So he had a vision in his head of how the it would look as if it was in a musical or something. So I held on to that, because I knew that that song had a deeper message than just, you know, a pop song was part of the other songs that we're writing so, so I have to give credit to my friend Dean for the lyric.

Amy Hageman  48:21

So yeah, please let him know, I felt like it was when we were talking earlier about your song, let me and you were saying like, this could be a parent, this could be source. I feel like it was the same thing with lemon and me. It's like, it's not necessarily about a loved one that passed on, but it totally could be.

Gary Norian  48:37

Yeah, yeah.

Amy Hageman  48:38

You know.

Gary Norian  48:38

Yes.

Amy Hageman  48:41

It's, yeah, it's just, it's beautiful. And I'm so glad that, you know, because I just go to I'm a creature of habit. And so I just go to the same four or five songs all the time. But in preparing for this, I was like, Oh, I'm gonna listen to his piano music. I'm gonna make sure listen to the whole album. And so when I heard live on me, I was like, get out of town. This is my radar before.

And it is. I there's, there's a lyric in there. And I didn't write it down. But there's a lyric in there about like, I close my eyes. And then and then I feel you are then you're with me or something. That is, from a spiritual perspective. It's like, yes, that could be just somebody that we're thinking of that could go electron that could be an angel. Like, that could be so many things. But it's so it's just helpful to have that reminder. Yeah, and the thing, here's the other thing I really liked about this album, it's just that the music is good. You know? Like, there's a lot of good music out there in the world. And then there's a lot of really meaningful lyrics out there in the world. And sometimes those two things don't coexist.

Music creation and creative process.

Gary Norian  49:55

Yeah. 

Amy Hageman  49:55

This album is just it's enjoyable to listen to on top of it. Be so meaningful.

Gary Norian  50:01

You know, we were going for quality on, on all aspects and I do give a lot of credit. I mean, Alan let you know, he, he did create, he created the sound that you hear, you know, the choice of the instruments and you know, I mean, the production what you hear is the sound scape and all that that was really Alan putting that together, you know, was really great. So I went in there with, you know, no lyrics and Ken would sing. And then Alan would build the production around it and then Ken would sometimes come back and rethink some things. But does everyone call Ken did a lot of first and second takes he nailed a lot right off the bat.

Amy Hageman  50:41

So that's, that's it? It's another question I have for you real quick, because I know we're gonna wrap up soon. But with artists do you ever get inspired by an artist voice? Like do you ever like, like at Unity Houston, we have joined last kowski we have Shavon Jacobs, Tony Glover, Boris Britt, like, do you ever hear some of their voices in your mind and think oh, like, there might be a mess, you know?

Gary Norian  51:06

Sure. Sure. For you. So with, you know, with with, with, I try to write the songs so that anybody can play it. Or anybody can sing it it can be on piano or guitar so I always start with that it's got to be good first it's got to have meet meet all the standards and pass the tests once you started working with Ken and you know he's he's got an operatic voice so so a lot of that easing of braking and credit but right so it's a weird match anyway, with with with operatic voice on top of like this pop music and it kind of became its own thing, because we were just doing it became a thing that I had not not not planned in advance. It just turned into that. So So once that, that, that that CD was all their stuff, and I had written more songs after that, then I was thinking, Okay, well, yeah, I can imagine can sing, then it did inform how I was thinking about writing. And then I had to kind of separate that and think, Okay, this is not Kenwood sound, cuz I could hear it in my head on singing on this. But what if there was a woman singing? Or what if somebody was younger was singing it? So So I still put it through that filter? And will it work in all situations? So you know.

Amy Hageman  52:25

Yeah. Yeah, can Gail is just out of this world. I mean, literally, like, I'm like a human alien, dude. Like, this is too good.

Gary Norian  52:35

Yeah.

Amy Hageman  52:36

He's so great. Yeah. Obviously, I guess that answered that question. Okay, let me ask you a just a behind the scenes artists question. Because there's a lot of people listen to the podcast that are not in Houston and do not have the luxury of hearing any of this live on a Sunday. As an artist, where do you get the most benefit? If somebody buys it on iTunes? If they listen on Spotify? Should they go to do a website? Like, where do you get the most benefit from this on your kin? Is that on Spotify? It's under Ken's name. But yeah,

Gary Norian  53:19

I mean, it's, it's the benefit, if you're speaking financially is so minimal at this point. Wherever anybody could find, I don't have a website. I'm like, I'm not even on social media. So I'm like, you know, off the grid, mostly. But if it's wherever it can be found, I figured originally was Apple Music and CD Baby, which existed back in the day, but I think Spotify is probably the best place to get it. Yeah, and they can buy buy hard copies of the CD in the unity bookstore, or they can order from there. But yeah, I wish I had a better answer for you. But it's so long ago, you know?

Amy Hageman  54:04

Yeah. Well, no, the truth is the way that I like to ask is for people that are sure. Yeah. For people that aren't in music, it's like we don't we don't know, you know, if it makes a significant difference, or not. Sure. Well, is there anything else that you would like to share either about your music or about the creative process? Just anything else that I didn't ask that you wish I had asked.

Gary Norian  54:31

We've, we've covered quite a bit. I mean, you know, the creative process, yes. Is is always anytime I create, or it's going well, it's always a reminder that that's how it happens. It's from forcing it so if that's if you know, if and then that's the same thing I would tell anybody who's trying to be creative, that you have to have a skill set and you're building that skill set all the time. But that that you have to take chances, creatively try something, the, which is a large part of being creative is trying something and if it doesn't work, pivot and go somewhere else. So I would say that, you know, if I were to talk about the creative process, it's a balance of taking those chances. And being open to something coming in that you did not expect, and can always calculate, you can always make that you can always say, Okay, now I'm open, whereas it's not like it's just exactly what I do. So, it's just, it's, you kind of put yourself in the zone, sometimes you find yourself in the zone when you least expect it. And that's, I would say more often than not, that's how it works for me. So it's being available to try to create situations where you're available.

Amy Hageman 56:04

Yeah, that's a such a helpful reminder and a lovely note to end the podcast on and I just want to say thank you again, I know it's been so long but the I truly feel like you created I don't know if archetypes or perspectives or reminders, but they Your songs are like characters in my world that pop in when I need them. And i i I wish I was talented enough to sing them. I wish I was talented enough to write them, but I will appreciate. I appreciate what I can get from them nonetheless. So thank you. I appreciate you so much, Gary. I really appreciate it. My pleasure. All right. You have a good one. All right. Bye